The collision between "Elbe no. 5" and m/v "Astrosprinter"

[Capt Popeye]

Humm well , not convinced or indeed happy that any Report would not recognise the large difference between a Ship or a Sailng Craft (boat) , either would need its own limitations in manouvering , especially in confined area , maybe the Inquiry is self centred about Ships , so lacks the real insight about a Sailing Ship (boat) in varying circumstances ? maybe thats why the report appears rather long winded and 'off the ball' to some commentators ?

Might state that any assumption by a Boat Skipper about another Ship (boat) actions is sheer stupidity in my opinion ; surely radio contact between the Vessels involved is a necesity when in Restricted Waters , as these 2 vessels were .

Fred Drift ere ; when on a sailng boat , while ago now , run by a Disability Sailing Organisation , the Skipper , who was giving instruction to a small crew of novices , sailed very close to a moored Yacht with the current sweeping us down towards the Yacht , we stranded up on the Mooring warps , and held on to avoid colliding with the Yacht (whos owners were looking down onto us below them ) when asked why he chose to sail to close to the yacht , he stated that he could see the wind on the water approachig us and thought that it would enable us to sail passed the yacht ok , well it did not , so these 'clever dick' type assumptions are really not the best way to gp boating at all

I soon decided that the Disability Sailing Organisation was not for me anymore , the lack or Real knowledge in the Organisation was far too risky for me

 

[Capt Popeye]

Might mention that there is another Video on Utube showing the events prior to the Video on here , it shows quite clearly the two vessels approaching each other some distance off . the comments are in either English or German , but one can quite easily see the meaning of these comments ; some of the comments back up what some have stated on this Thread ; one commentator actually refers to that bloody saying - power gives way to sail - URG

 

[R.Ems]

In my unsolicited personal opinion, hypothesizing from my comfy bunk, the accident was caused by confusion, lack of a chain of command, and other avoidable human factors.

Many years ago, what the airlines call 'cockpit (or 'crew') resource management' was introduced and studied, and the human causes of crashes re-investigated with a fresh look at culture and personalities.*
For example, it would have been shockingly unheard-of for a junior Asian airliner co-pilot to question the orders of his older and more experienced chief pilot, even if they were blatantly wrong; and such inhibitions have cost lives. As LittleSister said, the skipper was super-experienced but the first mate just had an ICC.

(*These techniques have partly percolated into commercial shipping but not enough.
The whole subject should be part of RYA training in my view.)

Anyway let us be grateful the Elbe No,5 suffered no casualties, they were lucky, almost miraculously so.
The report seems to be a bit of a whitewash though; eg apportioning blame to the damaged/blown-out sails in particular totally misses the point.

 

[Kukri]

I agree with R.Ems post 43 above.

 

[dunedin]

Re the lack of casualties, quite how lucky were these boat passengers to have THREE rescue craft nearby who witnessed the collision and were alongside immediately. Without that the would have sunk mid channel

 

[LittleSister]

I agree with R.Ems post 43 above.

Where's the fun in that?

 

[Poignard]

I agree with R.Ems post 43 above.

So do I, except for his final sentence:

[...]
The report seems to be a bit of a whitewash though; eg apportioning blame to the damaged/blown-out sails in particular totally misses the point.

The following is an extract from the report's conclusions (p.109) (My highlighting)

 

[Capt Popeye]

Dunno about all this information contained on these pages , Utube videos (2) , that so called report but why are they sailing , in a restricted Shipping waterway , with damaged and therfore unreliable sails hoisted , when they have an Engine ?

 

[R.Ems]

So do I, except for his final sentence:



The following is an extract from the report's conclusions (p.109) (My highlighting)
View attachment 136876

Fair enough, thanks for the extract; having read it, I now agree with you, in your disagreement with my last sentence!

 

[R.Ems]

I have just noticed that the schooner's skipper was 82 years old at the time, and she had not responded to several calls on the VHF about her course.

 

[LittleSister]

I have just noticed that the schooner's skipper was 82 years old at the time, and she had not responded to several calls on the VHF about her course.

It appeared to be the case that the VHF (and AIS) was not working at the time and for certain parts of the voyage, and the Report said IIRC this was either due to having been accidentally turned off when the radio channel was changed and/or some fault with the radio (the latter couldn't be checked because of the flooding and damage after the accident.) I can't remember whether the Report checked that the radio was normally audible from the deck when the vessel was under way.

I can't recall any questioning of the skipper's fitness. He had passed the required medical relatively recently, but how effective that test would be at establishing his mental and physical fitness I've no idea.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I have just noticed that the schooner's skipper was 82 years old at the time, and she had not responded to several calls on the VHF about her course.

It appeared to be the case that the VHF (and AIS) was not working at the time and for certain parts of the voyage, and the Report said IIRC this was either due to having been accidentally turned off when the radio channel was changed and/or some fault with the radio (the latter couldn't be checked because of the flooding and damage after the accident.) I can't remember whether the Report checked that the radio was normally audible from the deck when the vessel was under way.

I can't recall any questioning of the skipper's fitness. He had passed the required medical relatively recently, but how effective that test would be at establishing his mental and physical fitness I've no idea.

Well I guess that one really listens out for raio communication , just to make sure that all is connected and recieving well , without necessarity taking in the conversations , but its reasuring to actually Heard ; Guess NOT hearing it one should make one alert to its possible not switched ON

This just gets worse and worse as these pages get read and research is undertaken !

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm well , just watched the 'other' Utube video showing Crews /Passengers on board the Elbe No 5 watching concerned as they bear down on the Ship , it shows clearly a Fella dressed in Blue rushing over to the Boats Horn and giving it repeatedly 4 short blasts , whilst at the same time watching the approaching collision happening , then some crew push the Rudder Tiller hard to Port , which appears to sail the boat well into the path of the Container Ship ; guess they were attempting to get the Boat into the official side of the river , but with the Ship so dam close and still proceding at its speed , a collision is certain outcome .

The collision happens , the term 'sitting duck' comes to mind ?

All in all this other Video is quite alarming , showing the Helpneses of the Crew /Passengers , maily watching their possible demise in a sort of slow motion ?

 

[Zagato]

Well that simply looks like an irresponsible, foolish, completely avoidable collision by the sailing vessel. How much time do you need to avoid a container ship for heavens sake. I hope the skipper isn't responsible for people's lives anymore let alone causing damage and hassle/cost for both parties afterwards. I hope he doesn't drive on the roads around me.

 

[dancrane]

I reckon if only one thing could be learned from the whole sad episode, it's that the person or group at the helm should have a mind of their own, and not just follow (or misinterpret) instructions issued by someone elsewhere onboard, who may give vague commands, or be distracted or plain mistaken.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Well that simply looks like an irresponsible, foolish, completely avoidable collision by the sailing vessel. How much time do you need to avoid a container ship for heavens sake. I hope the skipper isn't responsible for people's lives anymore let alone causing damage and hassle/cost for both parties afterwards. I hope he doesn't drive on the roads around me.

Most apt comment /observation by Mr Z , above , in my view ; viewng the earlier Video's so watching the Crew /passengers as they can see the Ship on a Collision course , headless Chickens is a comment that comes to my mind ; suppose the Crew /passengers were indoctrinated to obey the Captain and Mate , as them know what them are doing , they were told /indoctrinated to so do

Just hope that the Company did not contract the Captain /Skipper again , EVER

 

[Kukri]

Well that simply looks like an irresponsible, foolish, completely avoidable collision by the sailing vessel. How much time do you need to avoid a container ship for heavens sake. I hope the skipper isn't responsible for people's lives anymore let alone causing damage and hassle/cost for both parties afterwards. I hope he doesn't drive on the roads around me.

I wish I were half the seaman and motorist that you and Captain Popeye are.

I just read the account and say to myself, “Well done, the SMH for bringing both the Elbe V and the Peking to Hamburg and restoring both of them and for keeping the Elbe V sailing and taking passengers”, and, above all, “There, but for the Grace of God, go I!”

 

[Capt Popeye]

I wish I were half the seaman and motorist that you and Captain Popeye are.

I just read the account and say to myself, “Well done, the SMH for bringing both the Elbe V and the Peking to Hamburg and restoring both of them and for keeping the Elbe V sailing and taking passengers”, and, above all, “There, but for the Grace of God, go I!”

Hi there Mr K ; sorry to have to say it , but your comments appear , to me , to reflect an opinion that the Companys restoring the yacht are to be applauded for Restoring them ; then also opffering chances for inexperienced to sail as passengers on board them ; but completely overlooking the possibility that this Company put the Lives of the passengers on that trip in real danger of loosing their lives ; Cannot think that a Company should be congratulated upon Restoration Works over failings in Health and Safety plus putting lives at real risk .

I would like to see that any Registration to the Restoration Company to take passengers is withdrawn completely from them ;

Restoring and Sailing with Passengers are two completely different scenarios ; in this case never the twain should meet

 

[R.Ems]

Well that simply looks like an irresponsible, foolish, completely avoidable collision by the sailing vessel. How much time do you need to avoid a container ship for heavens sake. I hope the skipper isn't responsible for people's lives anymore let alone causing damage and hassle/cost for both parties afterwards. I hope he doesn't drive on the roads around me.

Spot on.

 

[R.Ems]

I wish I were half the seaman and motorist that you and Captain Popeye are.

I just read the account and say to myself, “Well done, the SMH for bringing both the Elbe V and the Peking to Hamburg and restoring both of them and for keeping the Elbe V sailing and taking passengers”, and, above all, “There, but for the Grace of God, go I!”

None of which have any connection at all to the crash, apart from employing a totally incompetent, doddering old skipper.
Maybe it's time to get out of the heat?