The art of debate?

[BrendanS]

There used to be a time...in Pubs, Colleges, Uni's, workplaces, when people argued deep held beliefs and held to that opinion. They'd 'score' points, but at no time would things become personal

There were a few that would insult each other robustly, but were well known sparing partners, and so the personal insults weren't personal, and they'd buy each other pints during and after the bout.

Forums everywhere, not just these, seem to have lost these values. It seems you cannot have a good bout of debate anymore, in these electronic forums, without someone taking offense.

Is this just the new PC world, or have debating skills been lost forever?

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[bigmart]

I hope not. there's nothing like a good argument to sharpen the wit.

I think I got that right.

Martin

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[BrendanS]

The house proposes:

The art of debate has been lost. No one using internet forums is capable of holding a debate which impinges on others beliefs without personal insult ensuing

Who will hold the chair?



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[bigmart]

I think I had better decline as I seem to have the knack of causing the inflamation.

Martin

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[Twister_Ken]

Motion seconded...

...but I regret that a severe case of antifouling will prevent me from speaking until later.

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[Twister_Ken]

The knack of inflamation is undoubtedly better than inflamation of the knack.

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[bigmart]

That is indisputable.

Martin

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[BrendanS]

Re: Motion seconded...

Noted. I will myself be be unavailable for debate until the evening of Monday 21st due to club boating commitments

Anyone who wishes to propose items for debate in an orderly fashion are invited to do so in this thread. Anyone wishing to take up these points in the meantime should appoint a chair, and debate in an orderly manner

I expect to return to complete mayhem as ever!

Yours

Brendan

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[oldgit]

Dear Brendan.
Can I point out in the spirit of this particuler section of the forum"Old Raggie"dept.that you obviously no nuffick about boats.Ie your picture indicates that you do not have anything like the correct amount of rope/string,sorry anchor warp to do the job and also are not using the correct anchor for the job as it is not holding the bottom
And further more.... flag ensign..drone ..correct something or other .....yawn...too much wash...giving way.... tidal vectors..../forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<hr width=100% size=1>My little Princess/forums/images/icons/laugh.gifthe 33 of course.

 

[Magic_Sailor]

I agree with your sentiment but not with your end point.

It is not down to debaters to "not take offence". It is the responsibility of debaters to not cause offence in the first place.

When offence is given it is possible to ignore it. When it is repeatedly given and it is of a very basic nature it cannot be ignored and you'd have to be a saint not to retaliate in some way.

What I do think is that certain people use the virtual nature of the forum to be offensive and aggressive. Ususally, like all bullies they would run a mile if confronted in reality.

People hide their rudeness behind statements like "I'm only speaking my mind" and "I like to speak as I find" and the oft heard "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen". These are often the same people who decry changes in society and lowering of the standards of manners etc. Well people in glass houses....

Magic

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://hometown.aol.co.uk/geoffwestgarth/myhomepage/travelwriting.html>Click for website!</A>

 

[Peppermint]

Re:I\'m not convinced

The level of debate here is quite good when you look at the variety of people and subject matter.

Little offence is caused. Sticks and stones etc.

A major tactic of debate is knowing when to give or take offence.

Much of the offence offered here is as much a result of the format as anything else.
It's easy to project thoughts in the raw but important nuance and humour are slightly more difficult.

It's a well known fact that this kind of forum brings out the extremist in people. Ideas that you wouldn't dare express in one on one encounters can be expressed without getting a slap around the head.

The mass of debaters here do pretty well.

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[bigmart]

Re:I\'m not convinced

Wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed on every subject. I love a good debate & to keep a debate at an interesting level, the odd slightly inflamatory, comment is, I think, necessary. Wouldn't your thread on "Sanctions" have been boring if we'd all said "Yeah I know just what you mean". End of debate really.

If we are going to have a reasoned argument then I have to take up an opposite position. Don't I.(This is starting to sound like a Monty Python sketch).

One of the problems with a Forum, like this, is that, because you cannot see the person you debate with, you cannot read his/her body language. It is that much easier, then, to get more wound up than you opponent intended & to wind up your opponent, more than, you meant to. Unless you take the humour of a situation down to a very basic, obvious level, it is often wasted on those who are deeply involved in the debate. If you descend to an obvious level, with the humour, you can easily debase the debate.

I think we will have to live with the odd person, climbing out of his/her tree, throwing his/her rattle etc. etc.. I must admit all this political correctness gets right up my nose. Now how about a debate on that.

Martin

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[Mr Cassandra]

Whats the point?

Whats the point of a arguing ,when I already know that all of you are wrong
cheers bob t

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[bigmart]

Re: Whats the point?

Because I am going to bludgeon you with words until you dare not disagree with me.

Martin

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[Mr Cassandra]

Re: Whats the point?

Blinking hell ime off !!.cheers bob t

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[Grehan]

Whassat?

Mass debaters . . . eh?

[tsk, tsk Peppermint - thought you could get away with that didya!!!!]

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[kimhollamby]

For my part...

...I'm more than happy to see a robust debate, but not if it starts to get personal. Abuse of forum users is not tolerated here.

There are times when it does get silly and the rock hurling overtakes the original point of discussion but I'm not sure that it is such a huge problem...certainly we are removing very few posts of this nature.


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[Ohdrat]

Surely it's a Science and not an Art as the key to good debate is reason and logic

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[Observer]

"Good debate" - art or science?

Much depends upon what is meant by "debate" and on what is meant by "good".

A skilful orator is, I suggest, as likely (perhaps more likely) to carry his audience through power of persuasion, personality and force of rhetoric as by use of reasoned argument. A less able orator may have reason and logic on his side but fail to win the argument on presentation. Is that "good" debate or not?

Either way, the argument will be won and lost, it seems to me, not because of the inherent logical soundness of the respective positions of the proponents but by their ability to persuade the audience. The content of a debate may or may not be "science" (= knowledge) - the presentation of it is art.

The same holds true for written argument. I may have logic and reason on my side in setting forth this argument but I rely on craft (= art) to express it persuasively.


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[paul_lomax]

"Wit is educated insolence."
<font size=1>- Aristotle (384 - 322 BC)</font size=1>

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Paul Lomax
Internet Technology Manager
IPC Country and Leisure Media</font size=1>