Tether Hooks

[thinwater]

This is a good and timely thread. The comments by Moomba and I are probably typical of the level of understanding here.

By the way, I’ve forgotten why we use webbing, not rope, for tethers. Can someone remind me?

1. You can put elastic inside the webbing, making it self-retracting, which keeps it out from under foot.
2. Webbing is less slippery if you step on it.

I've used climbing rope (UIAA half-rope, about 7-8mm) before. The terminations are tricky and it can be under foot, but the shock absorption is MUCH better. I wish there was a webbing that could come close.

 

[Neeves]

And webbing is easy to sew (and I suspect cheaper to make loops etc) and when sewn is less bulky.

There is webbing and webbing, some is hollow (tube like) and some 'flat'. I used to use hollow webbing climbing - I've never looked in chandlers. We use flat tape for the jacklines, dyneema tube (Nautilus Braids, NZ) for abrasion covers, and dyneema tube with the sheets sewn (by hand, dyneema fishing line as thread) into each end, leaving the centre section empty, to allow a flat cow hitch on the clew.


Thinwater

I know you have done some sewing tests - how about 7-8mm climbing rope with sewn loops or sewn into hollow tape and then the tape sewn to make the loop - as the tether?

Jonathan

 

[Kukri]

I’ve been looking at the Proline tethers. Jolly nice, but .. ouch! $$€€££!!!

One can pretty much put a nought on the price of an “ordinary” three hook tether.

Which makes me think that if you are a Keen Crew, who turns up with your own PLB, etc., you will routinely buy one along with your top of the range LJ, and because there is one of you, you don’t mind the expense, but if you are an owner, ever keen to shark up a list of lawless resolutes, you are more likely to equip the boat with “ordinary” tethers, along with “ordinary” LJs. and such.

 

[Neeves]

I’ve been looking at the Proline tethers. Jolly nice, but .. ouch! $$€€££!!!

One can pretty much put a nought on the price of an “ordinary” three hook tether.

Which makes me think that if you are a Keen Crew, who turns up with your own PLB, etc., you will routinely buy one along with your top of the range LJ, and because there is one of you, you don’t mind the expense, but if you are an owner, ever keen to shark up a list of lawless resolutes, you are more likely to equip the boat with “ordinary” tethers, along with “ordinary” LJs. and such.

I have wondered along the same lines.....???

Except how would that stack up if you did lose someone - you knew, or should have known that the ordinary tethers were inadequate - after all, I started the thread and you have posted, as have a few others - and as owner/skipper - I must have that 'duty of care'

Jonathan

 

[Kukri]

I’m looking at five tethers and really not wanting to spend £1,000!

I think I am going to recycle my four old Gibb hooks on the jackstay ends and recycle two of the newer ones on the human ends... voila, two decent tethers... it’s a start!

 

[thinwater]

I’m looking at five tethers and really not wanting to spend £1,000!

I think I am going to recycle my four old Gibb hooks on the jackstay ends and recycle two of the newer ones on the human ends... voila, two decent tethers... it’s a start!

I said I like the Proline tethers. I didn't say they were the best value or that they are safer than any of the newer tethers.
* Spinlock Performance. About $200 for 3-clip. They use the Kong clips and are used on the VOR boats.
* Kong. About $100 for 3-clip. A bargain, probably because they make 100 times more climbing equipment than all of the marine manufacturers combined. And they make the clips for most of the marine guys. Also a lot of industrial climbing gear.

 

[tudorsailor]

I said I like the Proline tethers. I didn't say they were the best value or that they are safer than any of the newer tethers.
* Spinlock Performance. About $200 for 3-clip. They use the Kong clips and are used on the VOR boats.
* Kong. About $100 for 3-clip. A bargain, probably because they make 100 times more climbing equipment than all of the marine manufacturers combined. And they make the clips for most of the marine guys. Also a lot of industrial climbing gear.

For those of us in the UK I have found that the Spinlock Performance prices are here https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en/categories/safety-lines/product_groups/performance-safety-lines
3 clip Performance £92
Having difficulty finding the supplier/prices for the elastic double tether https://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/f41-sailing-accessories/p764-elastictetherevodouble Does anyone know a UK supplier?
However I have found a source of the Tango Carabiner without webbing for just £17 https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/kong-e...carabiner/?cnid=909570b0a612e5d7d7fc8b51d7b4d

TudorSailor

Edit: Now found that Proboat http://www.proboat.co.uk/ sell the Proline WD-7034 at £232.50 + vat each

 

[DipperToo]

Yes, they can twist open if snagged on a deck fitting. Forgot the details.

Frighteningly a couple of years ago after reading about how easily hooks could disconnect, I clipped a carabiner onto a safety line securing point, and just flicking the safety line loosely could disconnect the carabiner. Other crew members were equally astonished.
Needless to say, none of these carabiner hooks are allowed on the boat any more and like others I now use the Gibb style.

 

[Kukri]

For those of us in the UK I have found that the Spinlock Performance prices are here https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en/categories/safety-lines/product_groups/performance-safety-lines
3 clip Performance £92
Having difficulty finding the supplier/prices for the elastic double tether https://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/f41-sailing-accessories/p764-elastictetherevodouble Does anyone know a UK supplier?
However I have found a source of the Tango Carabiner without webbing for just £17 https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/kong-e...carabiner/?cnid=909570b0a612e5d7d7fc8b51d7b4d

TudorSailor

Thank you; that is really helpful.

 

[thinwater]

Frighteningly a couple of years ago after reading about how easily hooks could disconnect, I clipped a carabiner onto a safety line securing point, and just flicking the safety line loosely could disconnect the carabiner. Other crew members were equally astonished.
Needless to say, none of these carabiner hooks are allowed on the boat any more and like others I now use the Gibb style.

Unfortunately, the Splinlock hook can rotate off under hand pressure too. This video is chilling to watch. The U-bolt meets the dimensions specified in the ISO standard the carabiner is required to meet.
https://youtu.be/CbyhyC7ua8g

 

[thinwater]

Frighteningly a couple of years ago after reading about how easily hooks could disconnect, I clipped a carabiner onto a safety line securing point, and just flicking the safety line loosely could disconnect the carabiner. Other crew members were equally astonished.
Needless to say, none of these carabiner hooks are allowed on the boat any more and like others I now use the Gibb style.

Unfortunately, the Gibb-style, as interpreted by Spinlock, can rotate off as well. I found the video chilling. The clip rotates right off under hand pressure.
https://youtu.be/CbyhyC7ua8g

 

[Kukri]

This is a very sobering thread. I looked at my “three ton”, “UV resistant” webbing jackstays, yesterday, after reading it, and took them along to the sailmaker for new ones. They may get re-positioned later, during the sailing season when I can try different ideas.

 

[Neeves]

The worry is that the number of people taking an active interest in the thread is not large, but maybe that reflects the numbers who go offshore and need tethers. Having a man overboard, in my case a women, was the most chilling event I have had on a yacht - as when I looked up, from whatever task, the sea was empty and the person tasked with keeping the MOB in sight was head down being violently sick. Obviously we recovered the woman - but .... I don't like to think about it - but will never, ever, forget.

I'm not an expert, by any means, on tethers, jackstays, hooks etc - but I do take an interest and did find the Clipper loss desperately sobering and desperately sad - as there arguably (and presumably the MAIB report will make mention) was other gear that might not have had the same result. I went onto some of the Clipper yachts when they came into Sydney. They are really big yachts, much bigger then most mentioned here - I don't know if that increases or reduces the risks. I was impressed that along with the harnesses, LJs and tethers (easily and obviously available) they also had a helmet (in fact 2) for anyone who needed to go over the side to help retrieve an unconscious MOB.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

The worry is that the number of people taking an active interest in the thread is not large, but maybe that reflects the numbers who go offshore and need tethers. Having a man overboard, in my case a women, was the most chilling event I have had on a yacht - as when I looked up, from whatever task, the sea was empty and the person tasked with keeping the MOB in sight was head down being violently sick. Obviously we recovered the woman - but .... I don't like to think about it - but will never, ever, forget.

I'm not an expert, by any means, on tethers, jackstays, hooks etc - but I do take an interest and did find the Clipper loss desperately sobering and desperately sad - as there arguably (and presumably the MAIB report will make mention) was other gear that might not have had the same result. I went onto some of the Clipper yachts when they came into Sydney. They are really big yachts, much bigger then most mentioned here - I don't know if that increases or reduces the risks. I was impressed that along with the harnesses, LJs and tethers (easily and obviously available) they also had a helmet (in fact 2) for anyone who needed to go over the side to help retrieve an unconscious MOB.

Jonathan

Interestingly, I've started doing a review of sailing helmets. First, it's really not at all clear what standard should apply. Surf helmets (Gath) meet no standard and offer very little padding. Most sailing helmets are based on the canoe/kayak standard, but the requirements are very different from sailing. They relate to low-speed bumps on rocks, not a fast-moving boom. In some ways, the requirements of a sailing helmet might be more like that of a bike helmet (one hard hit), but with better coverage.

Is the helmet compatible with a hood? Does it snag on ropes? What about wind noise (most increases it some)? Finally, is it comfortable?

Head injures are not common, but they can be severe and account for about 1/3 of the rescues and race drop-outs. Among racers, they are as great a risk as drowning, before we even consider that some of the "drowning" victims were hit on the head.

 

[thinwater]

The worry is that the number of people taking an active interest in the thread is not large, but maybe that reflects the numbers who go offshore and need tethers. Having a man overboard, in my case a women, was the most chilling event I have had on a yacht - as when I looked up, from whatever task, the sea was empty and the person tasked with keeping the MOB in sight was head down being violently sick. Obviously we recovered the woman - but .... I don't like to think about it - but will never, ever, forget.

I'm not an expert, by any means, on tethers, jackstays, hooks etc - but I do take an interest and did find the Clipper loss desperately sobering and desperately sad - as there arguably (and presumably the MAIB report will make mention) was other gear that might not have had the same result. I went onto some of the Clipper yachts when they came into Sydney. They are really big yachts, much bigger then most mentioned here - I don't know if that increases or reduces the risks. I was impressed that along with the harnesses, LJs and tethers (easily and obviously available) they also had a helmet (in fact 2) for anyone who needed to go over the side to help retrieve an unconscious MOB.

Jonathan

Coincidentally, I've been starting a review of sailing helmets. First, it's not clear which standard is applicable. Surf helmets (Gath) are built to no standard and have very little padding. Most sailing helmets are built to the canoe/kayak standard, but it is for slow hits on rocks, not high speed wacks from the boom. Bike helmets are required to withstand 4-8 times greater impact energy, depending on the strike direction. And what about wind noise, snagging on ropes, and compatibility with hoods? And yet I've been wearing some of them and liking them. Some not so much.

How serious are head injuries? While relatively uncommon, among racers they account for about 1/3 of evacuations and medical retirements. They can be bad. This is about the same number as drownings... before we consider that many of the "drowning" victims were hit on the head, explaining why they didn't swim well and swallowed water.

This, from US Sailing, which I think is, to a large extent, complete rubbish. They infer that helmets don't help. Answer me this; "I'm going to wack you hard in the head with this hockey stick. Do you want the helmet or not?" I think they were, politically, looking for a specific answer.

2015. A word of caution to all persons who consider using helmets while sailing. There is no data to confirm that helmets will prevent concussions. The brain injury comes from the acceleration/deceleration from the strike, which is apparently not substantially altered by a helmet.
Helmets have been shown to reduce the incidence and severity of facial and skull fractures, contusions and lacerations but not concussions.

Concussions seem to occur more easily in pre-teen and teens. We also need to be aware that adding a helmet to a young head makes the head a “larger” target and could possibly lead to more head strikes.
Therefore, it is the position of the Sports Medicine Committee of US SAILING that helmets should be considered and encouraged but not mandated for:
♦ aggressive competitive sailing,
♦ crew positions at increased risk for strikes to the head, and
♦ sailors who are learning the sport and thus unfamiliar with the position and movement of rigging and equipment.
In the event that a concussion or head injury occurs, treatment and the evaluation for a return to activity should be done by a trained specialist.

David Jones, M.D., Chair of the Sports Medicine Committee
Thomas Hubbell, M.D., President of US Sailing

Maybe it's silly, but you may find me wearing a dry suit, harness, and helmet on some spirited days. [note: by current boat is not the cruising cat in the Avitar, but a more spirited trimaran with a low boom and no lifelines, and the water is 0-5C right now.]

 

[grumpy_o_g]

So, after some excellent posts, is there a consensus as to what the best tether or at least tether hook is? I've spent hundred's on PLB's and DSC VHF's but I'd rather get the not going overboard in the first place bit as right as possible and find I've wasted all that money...

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Coincidentally, I've been starting a review of sailing helmets. First, it's not clear which standard is applicable. Surf helmets (Gath) are built to no standard and have very little padding. Most sailing helmets are built to the canoe/kayak standard, but it is for slow hits on rocks, not high speed wacks from the boom. Bike helmets are required to withstand 4-8 times greater impact energy, depending on the strike direction. And what about wind noise, snagging on ropes, and compatibility with hoods? And yet I've been wearing some of them and liking them. Some not so much.

How serious are head injuries? While relatively uncommon, among racers they account for about 1/3 of evacuations and medical retirements. They can be bad. This is about the same number as drownings... before we consider that many of the "drowning" victims were hit on the head, explaining why they didn't swim well and swallowed water.

This, from US Sailing, which I think is, to a large extent, complete rubbish. They infer that helmets don't help. Answer me this; "I'm going to wack you hard in the head with this hockey stick. Do you want the helmet or not?" I think they were, politically, looking for a specific answer.

2015. A word of caution to all persons who consider using helmets while sailing. There is no data to confirm that helmets will prevent concussions. The brain injury comes from the acceleration/deceleration from the strike, which is apparently not substantially altered by a helmet.
Helmets have been shown to reduce the incidence and severity of facial and skull fractures, contusions and lacerations but not concussions.

Concussions seem to occur more easily in pre-teen and teens. We also need to be aware that adding a helmet to a young head makes the head a “larger” target and could possibly lead to more head strikes.
Therefore, it is the position of the Sports Medicine Committee of US SAILING that helmets should be considered and encouraged but not mandated for:
♦ aggressive competitive sailing,
♦ crew positions at increased risk for strikes to the head, and
♦ sailors who are learning the sport and thus unfamiliar with the position and movement of rigging and equipment.
In the event that a concussion or head injury occurs, treatment and the evaluation for a return to activity should be done by a trained specialist.

David Jones, M.D., Chair of the Sports Medicine Committee
Thomas Hubbell, M.D., President of US Sailing

Maybe it's silly, but you may find me wearing a dry suit, harness, and helmet on some spirited days. [note: by current boat is not the cruising cat in the Avitar, but a more spirited trimaran with a low boom and no lifelines, and the water is 0-5C right now.]

Concussion is caused by the brain rattling around inside the skull - the blow on the head is usually just the cause of the head being accelerated or stopped sharply and a helmet not only may not help, it can even make things worse. Motorcycle, motorsports and the better bike helmets are carefully designed to minimise that acceleration and deceleration. The issue isn't just forwards and backwards motion either as the brain can rotate inside skull if the head is turned and stopped sharply.

That doesn't mean the hard protection is worthless but you should never assume that it will protect the brain as the fit and the design of the interior padding are absolutely critical. Even then a helmet may not help as all too many rugby players can attest - you can get concussion without the head being touched in anyway though that's a lot less likely on a sailboat. Not saying a helmet's a bad idea, just saying it's not as straightforward as it seems...

 

[thinwater]

Concussion is caused by the brain rattling around inside the skull - the blow on the head is usually just the cause of the head being accelerated or stopped sharply and a helmet not only may not help, it can even make things worse. Motorcycle, motorsports and the better bike helmets are carefully designed to minimise that acceleration and deceleration. The issue isn't just forwards and backwards motion either as the brain can rotate inside skull if the head is turned and stopped sharply.

That doesn't mean the hard protection is worthless but you should never assume that it will protect the brain as the fit and the design of the interior padding are absolutely critical. Even then a helmet may not help as all too many rugby players can attest - you can get concussion without the head being touched in anyway though that's a lot less likely on a sailboat. Not saying a helmet's a bad idea, just saying it's not as straightforward as it seems...

^^ Yes, I gave the very short version. It's just a forum thread. I'm an engineer and I've read a fair few studies. The physics makes sense... but there is more than one mechanism.

The rugby example is both a good example and a misdirection; it's a soft impact from grass or a shoulder, the perfect example of where a hard shell won't help with a concussion. Most of the shock absorption came from the grass or shoulder. However, the serious sailing accidents generally involve a depressed fracture, either from the boom or a sharp edge in the cockpit. In fact, there are few soft surfaces in a boat. The boom is perhaps more like a bat. The harder the surface, the more a little padding can make a difference in deceleration forces. In fact, helmet standards are based upon energy and resultant G-forces.

No, not simple. But if I swing a bat at you, I bet you want the helmet. On the other hand, there is always a risk that a helmet will make the athlete feel safer than he is.

 

[Roberto]

^^ Yes, I gave the very short version. It's just a forum thread. I'm an engineer and I've read a fair few studies. The physics makes sense... but there is more than one mechanism.

The rugby example is both a good example and a misdirection; it's a soft impact from grass or a shoulder, the perfect example of where a hard shell won't help with a concussion. Most of the shock absorption came from the grass or shoulder. However, the serious sailing accidents generally involve a depressed fracture, either from the boom or a sharp edge in the cockpit. In fact, there are few soft surfaces in a boat. The boom is perhaps more like a bat. The harder the surface, the more a little padding can make a difference in deceleration forces. In fact, helmet standards are based upon energy and resultant G-forces.

No, not simple. But if I swing a bat at you, I bet you want the helmet. On the other hand, there is always a risk that a helmet will make the athlete feel safer than he is.

If being hit on the head is such a big concern to sail with an helmet, I think the best option on an *average* boat is to raise the boom height After having devised the best helmet people must wear it to be effective, otherwise it's like the perfect harness with two dozen transverse upside down latches and straps which very often remains on the bottom of a locker as no one in his right mind would ever bother to wear it for more than a few hours.
Likewise, after having read about the VOR guy falling overboard while escalating the bowsprit without lifejacket and without harness, it tells a long story about differences in theory vs practice even in professional crews.
Lives are saved by good equipment as well as people willing to use this good equipment.


Add: the only helmet I used (well, I tried to use) was to scrape the bottom of the hull, I could only use the plastic building yard ones as they have no floatation, the skeet one was not manageable: I can hardly see myself bringing onboard various helmets in various sizes for various applications.

 

[Roberto]

Apart from hooks, there is this standard requiring 2k kgf breaking load on tethers: where does it come from?
A load of 2 tons halfway the spine of a human being -where most LJ harness attachment are- would most surely break it in two: given lifejackets, plb and all sort of locating beacons, from the regulatory point of view wouldn t a lower breaking strength tether be better, leaving the person alive in the water instead of hanging paralysed on the side of the boat? (Referring to the 1.9ton load on the spine, *not* the never fall overboard story)