Terrible news from Clipper

[savageseadog]

Seems to me, that some on here are treating the Clipper organisation "with contempt", without any real knowledge of either their training system or the unfortunate accident.

I think some of us are judging from results.

I stand by what I said previously. Some people are never going to make good sailors no matter how much training they do, there's an inherent risk to themselves and others in having them on board a boat. Most of the crew are paying customers, being brutally frank this must affect whether they are allowed to participate. In this particular instance however the death appears to be a blameless accident, the man involved seems to have been competent and experienced, although the full facts aren't yet known.

 

[laika]

It’s called ‘being persuasive in your argument and is nothing to do with ‘my personal emotions’ as you allege.

. (From http://www.cambridgeblog.org/2015/03/emotive-language-in-argumentation-2/)

"emotive language" is using using particular words designed to invoke emotion in other. This isn't what JD says you're doing. He's saying you're displaying your own emotional reaction. "disdain" and "contempt" are emotional reactions so imho he's right but I think the fact we're discussing such trivia is an indication that all that can be usefully said (and unfortunately more) in advance of an informed report on this particular incident has been said. Perhaps other comments related to clipper training or business model might be expressed in a separate thread whose subject isn't this particular tragedy?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm might I ask a question (oh never been that far off shore and bloody well do not want to; oh on Cruise Ships though = OK)

Is the attending to a Jib when underway which necessitates gaining access to the Bow of a Yacht and performing actions /tasks there in any way liable to be a hazard if one looses ones footing ?

Suggest that, if the answer is YES then is it not feasible to perform those actions /tasks in a way that gaining access to the Bow is not necessary ? so alleviating any RISK .

Simples eh, plus NO RYA qualifications required to answer the Question, indeed any RYA qualifications just might mean that you have a blinkered pre opinion in the matter and are so prejudiced in ones attitude

 

[westhinder]

Seems to me, that some on here are treating the Clipper organisation "with contempt", without any real knowledge of either their training system or the unfortunate accident.

Not a matter of contempt, but it seems to me that it is absolutely valid to ask some stern questions of an organisation that is running a business, that is doing what it does for profit, if in doing so it has had a number of fatal accidents. The more so if after previous accidents recommendations were made to improve the level of safety. The least one can expect is that the way these recommendations have been followed or acted upon is thoroughly scrutinized. If after that scrutiny it turns out that the organisation has done what was recommended, and the conclusion is that this is genuine bad luck, so be it. We all know that going to sea entails risks, and we all have to decide what level of risk we are prepared to accept. If on the other hand the findings are that the recommendations were not taken on board and that the organisation consciously did not or not enough improve the safety of its customers, who pay serious amounts of money for the trip, I think they are in deep trouble.
You will notice that these questions have nothing to do with the person of the victim for whom all of us here can only have sympathy.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I think some of us are judging from results.

I stand by what I said previously. Some people are never going to make good sailors no matter how much training they do, there's an inherent risk to themselves and others in having them on board a boat. Most of the crew are paying customers, being brutally frank this must affect whether they are allowed to participate. In this particular instance however the death appears to be a blameless accident, the man involved seems to have been competent and experienced, although the full facts aren't yet known.

But how do you know whether Clipper, having started people on the training program, don't quietly suggest that they aren't quite up to the challenge that the race imposes on crew and individuals?

"emotive language" is using using particular words designed to invoke emotion in other. This isn't what JD says you're doing. He's saying you're displaying your own emotional reaction. "disdain" and "contempt" are emotional reactions so imho he's right but I think the fact we're discussing such trivia is an indication that all that can be usefully said (and unfortunately more) in advance of an informed report on this particular incident has been said. Perhaps other comments related to clipper training or business model might be expressed in a separate thread whose subject isn't this particular tragedy?

But as you rightly say, Jumbleduck actually referred to 'My emotions' see post no 194. It was he who suggested my emotions were getting in the way. They're not, and he was trying to divert attention away from his previous comments. I used strong language to express my strong opinions. It's a normal rhetoric technique.

Humm might I ask a question (oh never been that far off shore and bloody well do not want to; oh on Cruise Ships though = OK)

Is the attending to a Jib when underway which necessitates gaining access to the Bow of a Yacht and performing actions /tasks there in any way liable to be a hazard if one looses ones footing ?

Suggest that, if the answer is YES then is it not feasible to perform those actions /tasks in a way that gaining access to the Bow is not necessary ? so alleviating any RISK .

Simples eh, plus NO RYA qualifications required to answer the Question, indeed any RYA qualifications just might mean that you have a blinkered pre opinion in the matter and are so prejudiced in ones attitude

There are advantages and disadvantages to using hanked on sails. The advantages of roller reefing headsails are obvious. Easy to reef down and you don't need to go forward and you need fewer crew. However hanked on sails can be more efficient (They can be cut from the right weight cloth for the size of the sail and the wind strength they are designed for and with the right shape for their designed purpose.) Implications within that are that at higher wind speeds, you get a better setting more efficient sail. (A tuff luff is even more efficient, but hanks are stronger and more easily fixed on large Ocean going boats.) The downside is that you need to have crew on the foredeck to change the sails and you need somewhere to store them when not in use. On large boats, do not underestimate the weight of such sails. They need SEVERAL strong people to move them about on the boat with co-ordinated effort. (Not difficult and you get the hang of it very quickly.)

An added advantage of hanked on sails is reduced windage aloft (exactly where you don't want it) in heavy weather.

Its not a simple matter of 'roller reefing is safer; therefore its a no brainer to go for roller reefing' as you seem to half imply.

 

[Triassic]

....
Its not a simple matter of 'roller reefing is safer; therefore its a no brainer to go for roller reefing' as you seem to half imply.

It's also worth considering one of the very purposes of the Clipper Challenge is that it is just that, a Challenge. It would be very easy to have roller headsails that can be furled at the push of a button from the comfort and safety of the cabin, but you can just imagine the challenge in that.... Alternatively you could have a system that requires four or five individuals to work closely as a team in difficult conditions? When I read about tragic incidents such as this and then hear individuals throwing criticism around with suggestions of fault, blame and liability I always think back to a dark night mid channel when we were trying to reduce sail on the training vessel Sir Winston Churchill. I remember being out on the far end of the yard arm trying to ignore the sight of the deck passing from side to side beneath me and concentrating instead on working with the three other individuals to my side, whilst our colleagues on deck tried to coordinate via the sheets what we were doing with the four people on the other end of the yard arm......

When we all made it back to deck successfully the feeling of elation and satisfaction was immense, and the lessons learnt that night have stayed with me for life. I know the Clippers are not training ships but the challenge they represent has a value. If something was easy anyone could do it, where's the challenge in that?

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

My sympathies go firstly to the family of the sailor who was lost and secondly to the crew of Great Britain who must be traumatised.
I hesitate to add to the discussion until receipt of the official report but I feel it relevant to express one opinion. The prototype of the class of boat now used was brought to the marina/yard where I keep my boat for modifications to the rigging. I remember feeling at the time that she was just a little extreme to take non professionals racing around the world. A lot of flat decking, a shallow cockpit and a very powerful rig. Difficult to have one hand for the ship and one for me. More speed needs quicker reactions which paying amateurs will take some considerable time to learn. Has the boat contributed to the higher casualty rate in the last 2 races? The earlier races were largely incident free until the change of boats.
A dreadful tragedy.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

What we actually need to know is what safety arrangements we in place before the incident. Going overboard on a long leash is often fatal as witnessed by the Lion incident, as the front clip on point drags the victim facedown in the water. A short leash is needed or one attached midships so one cant go over. Netting is also good to prevent one slipping through guard rails. Lack of true consideration of safety has been known in other commercial sailing ventures such as ocean rowing. I await the Marine Accident report, but its sad to here such news.

However as others have noted, hank on sails increase foredeck time. As an engineer I am expected by CDM to design out risks not merely provide ways of mitigating them. Of course roller furling has its own issues and makes it harder to change sails if that's whats needed.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm might suggest that perhaps a radical re think of the safety provisions particularly when working on the fore-deck are required.
Might suggest that if one takes the modern Trawlers and Fishing boats as an example of where greatly increased protection & safety, have improved conditions where extra guards, raised decking, raised side decking covering over of the For-deck etc etc have resulted in far greater crew protection than the earlier open deck boats had.
Might not, oh all right then, do not look like a Traditional Fishing Craft did, but they are I assume far safer to work on.
Just perhaps we should be looking at similar re designs for Cross Oceans Yachts whether involved in Races or just Cruising across ?
Might ask the question, is it better to get home again in one piece or stay out there for ever ?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

My sympathies go firstly to the family of the sailor who was lost and secondly to the crew of Great Britain who must be traumatised.
I hesitate to add to the discussion until receipt of the official report but I feel it relevant to express one opinion. The prototype of the class of boat now used was brought to the marina/yard where I keep my boat for modifications to the rigging. I remember feeling at the time that she was just a little extreme to take non professionals racing around the world. A lot of flat decking, a shallow cockpit and a very powerful rig. Difficult to have one hand for the ship and one for me. More speed needs quicker reactions which paying amateurs will take some considerable time to learn. Has the boat contributed to the higher casualty rate in the last 2 races? The earlier races were largely incident free until the change of boats.
A dreadful tragedy.

This is an excellent observation and indeed is food for thought.

 

[alant]

I think some of us are judging from results.

I stand by what I said previously. Some people are never going to make good sailors no matter how much training they do, there's an inherent risk to themselves and others in having them on board a boat. Most of the crew are paying customers, being brutally frank this must affect whether they are allowed to participate. In this particular instance however the death appears to be a blameless accident, the man involved seems to have been competent and experienced, although the full facts aren't yet known.

What "results" are you judging from?

 

[alant]

Humm might I ask a question (oh never been that far off shore and bloody well do not want to; oh on Cruise Ships though = OK)

Is the attending to a Jib when underway which necessitates gaining access to the Bow of a Yacht and performing actions /tasks there in any way liable to be a hazard if one looses ones footing ?

Suggest that, if the answer is YES then is it not feasible to perform those actions /tasks in a way that gaining access to the Bow is not necessary ? so alleviating any RISK .

Simples eh, plus NO RYA qualifications required to answer the Question, indeed any RYA qualifications just might mean that you have a blinkered pre opinion in the matter and are so prejudiced in ones attitude

No.
Clipper, much like the BT Challenge boats & many others, configured as Sail Training Vessels, specifically do not have roller headsails, electric winches, etc. It can be argued, that hanked on foresails are more efficient/safer.

 

[alant]

Not a matter of contempt, but it seems to me that it is absolutely valid to ask some stern questions of an organisation that is running a business, that is doing what it does for profit, if in doing so it has had a number of fatal accidents. The more so if after previous accidents recommendations were made to improve the level of safety. The least one can expect is that the way these recommendations have been followed or acted upon is thoroughly scrutinized. If after that scrutiny it turns out that the organisation has done what was recommended, and the conclusion is that this is genuine bad luck, so be it. We all know that going to sea entails risks, and we all have to decide what level of risk we are prepared to accept. If on the other hand the findings are that the recommendations were not taken on board and that the organisation consciously did not or not enough improve the safety of its customers, who pay serious amounts of money for the trip, I think they are in deep trouble.
You will notice that these questions have nothing to do with the person of the victim for whom all of us here can only have sympathy.

You are asking "stern" questions, with little knowledge of any actual facts, or before any enquiry has even taken place or made any of those "recommendations" you stubbornly insist "were not taken on board". Totally illogic.

 

[NormanS]

No.
Clipper, much like the BT Challenge boats & many others, configured as Sail Training Vessels, specifically do not have roller headsails, electric winches, etc. It can be argued, that hanked on foresails are more efficient/safer.

I have no experience of the extreme type of sailing involved, but even I can see that hanked on headsails will be more efficient in terms of air flow to the sail, but I'm struggling to think of ways in which hanked on head sails are safer. Possibly you can enlighten me?

 

[alant]

I have no experience of the extreme type of sailing involved, but even I can see that hanked on headsails will be more efficient in terms of air flow to the sail, but I'm struggling to think of ways in which hanked on head sails are safer. Possibly you can enlighten me?

Never lost control of your furling line then, so your hands are badly burned, or the line wraps fouled around the drum with riding turns, requiring the headsail to be unwrapped manually so it can be dropped, allowing you to untangle & free the drum, all this perhaps mid ocean in a gale? Apart from interesting incidents like that, weight aloft is also a safety factor.

 

[dslittle]

Not a matter of contempt, but it seems to me that it is absolutely valid to ask some stern questions of an organisation that is running a business, that is doing what it does for profit, if in doing so it has had a number of fatal accidents. The more so if after previous accidents recommendations were made to improve the level of safety. The least one can expect is that the way these recommendations have been followed or acted upon is thoroughly scrutinized. If after that scrutiny it turns out that the organisation has done what was recommended, and the conclusion is that this is genuine bad luck, so be it. We all know that going to sea entails risks, and we all have to decide what level of risk we are prepared to accept. If on the other hand the findings are that the recommendations were not taken on board and that the organisation consciously did not or not enough improve the safety of its customers, who pay serious amounts of money for the trip, I think they are in deep trouble.

I suppose that you will be called to put your stern questions before the Inquest as an 'expert witness' then?

On the other hand I suppose that they might get a qualified Barrister to have a quick look at the evidence over a few months and then chuck in a few questions to the Judge in front of the Inquest Jury one afternoon...

 

[NormanS]

Never lost control of your furling line then, so your hands are badly burned, or the line wraps fouled around the drum with riding turns, requiring the headsail to be unwrapped manually so it can be dropped, allowing you to untangle & free the drum, all this perhaps mid ocean in a gale? Apart from interesting incidents like that, weight aloft is also a safety factor.

No, so far, I've never lost control of the line, and am very careful not to allow slack line and thereby avoid riding turns. I did once have a problem when the halyard diverter sheared its fastenings to the mast, and gave me a wrap. That wasn't very nice.

I do remember several occasions of handling hanked-on headsails in bad weather, fighting to control sail on a heaving and plunging foredeck, and very nearly going over the side when inadvertently kneeling on a double layer of sailcloth. Passing sails up or down through an unprotected forehatch, far outweighing the disadvantage of increased weight aloft. Yes, I remember these things, and there is no way that I would go back to them.

But that's just my sailing. I'm not for one moment suggesting what ocean racers should do, just interested in how hanked on head sails could be safer than roller furling.

 

[RobF]

No, so far, I've never lost control of the line, and am very careful not to allow slack line and thereby avoid riding turns. I did once have a problem when the halyard diverter sheared its fastenings to the mast, and gave me a wrap. That wasn't very nice.

I do remember several occasions of handling hanked-on headsails in bad weather, fighting to control sail on a heaving and plunging foredeck, and very nearly going over the side when inadvertently kneeling on a double layer of sailcloth. Passing sails up or down through an unprotected forehatch, far outweighing the disadvantage of increased weight aloft. Yes, I remember these things, and there is no way that I would go back to them.

But that's just my sailing. I'm not for one moment suggesting what ocean racers should do, just interested in how hanked on head sails could be safer than roller furling.

A few areas spring to mind
a) no risk of furling line jam
b) sails can be properly made and set according to wind speed (my experience of heavily reefed furling sails is that they aren't particularly efficient)
c) reduced windage aloft when heavily reefed
d) as JM notes, the weight of the sailcloth can be adjusted according to windspeed.

Whilst we are all agreeing that races need to be as safe as possible and mitigate risks as much as possible, it is still a race. In our quest to go fast (and push the limits) there will always be a trade off between safety and speed. This is no different to Formula 1 or fast jets.

Clipper could could go for furling sails, and heavier displacement boats, and race in more benign areas of the world, and then they could have long keels and short masts and no boom.

 

[johndove]

Looks like another MAIB investigation for clipper.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/wa...nded-at-mouth-of-portsmouth-harbour-1-8258757

Am sure groundings on commercial yachts need a report, same as Greenings.

 

[Resolution]

I have just spent the evening with a pal who is currently doing the Clipper training, prior to crewing on the leg from Capetown this time next year. He is modestly experienced, has Dazed Kipper qualifications and has skippered a 45 ft yacht on offshore passages. Neither he nor his Clipper crew mates actually know what happened on this unfortunate voyage, so no inside info there. But I can report that he is impressed with the thoroughness and detail so far in their training. Only in the Solent so far, but already he has been in the water more than once to practice recovery of Bob, the dummy used for MOB drills. Clipping on has always been an absolute rule, using all three hooks the whole time. My pal's guess is that maybe the accident involved a hook being half clipped on and coming undone under pressure. But that is just his guesswork.
More controversial was a comment made to him by one of the coaches that Clipper crew often got flipped over the side and recovered by their tethers. It would be very interesting if there is any confirmation of the assertion.
Other less dramatic comments included one about how heavy the sails are, the genoa so needing three people working in unison to shift them up to deck. He felt that this is very much part of the challenge, both teamwork and just hard physical graft, that caused him to sign up in the first place. The death made him stop and reconsider. After long ponder he is still up for the challenge and raring to go. I have to admire his attitude.