Terrible news from Clipper

[westhinder]

You are asking "stern" questions, with little knowledge of any actual facts, or before any enquiry has even taken place or made any of those "recommendations" you stubbornly insist "were not taken on board". Totally illogic.

I think you have completely misunderstood me.
What I am saying is that given what happened in this and the previous race it is normal that the organisation will have to face questions. There will be a MAIB enquiry, no doubt. The questions asked there will be serious, even stern, there is no doubt about that. There is no reason why we should not discuss the questions that enquiry could, should and will ask.
The previous enquiry into the two deaths did make a number of recommendations to improve safety aboard. I would be hugely surprised if the new enquiry did not follow up on these recommendations. I did not suggest, nor 'stubbornly insist' that they were not taken on board, I said that if the enquiry finds they were not taken on board, Clipper will be in trouble.
If you call that illogical, I rest my case.

 

[Uricanejack]

The whole point of an MAIB investigation. Find out what happened. Why it happened, What can be changed to help prevent it happening again.
There are no stern questions, there is no blame. there is no fault found.
Even so
They are very good at what they do. They are very thorough. All stones get turned over. Minute details are checked. Giving testimony is usually a traumatic experience.
Fortunately it is privileged.

 

[lw395]

The whole point of an MAIB investigation. Find out what happened. Why it happened, What can be changed to help prevent it happening again.
There are no stern questions, there is no blame. there is no fault found.
Even so
They are very good at what they do. They are very thorough. All stones get turned over. Minute details are checked. Giving testimony is usually a traumatic experience.
Fortunately it is privileged.

I doubt Mr Innes would share that view of the process.

 

[alant]

I think you have completely misunderstood me.
What I am saying is that given what happened in this and the previous race it is normal that the organisation will have to face questions. There will be a MAIB enquiry, no doubt. The questions asked there will be serious, even stern, there is no doubt about that. There is no reason why we should not discuss the questions that enquiry could, should and will ask.
The previous enquiry into the two deaths did make a number of recommendations to improve safety aboard. I would be hugely surprised if the new enquiry did not follow up on these recommendations. I did not suggest, nor 'stubbornly insist' that they were not taken on board, I said that if the enquiry finds they were not taken on board, Clipper will be in trouble.
If you call that illogical, I rest my case.

Still illogical IMO, what "question that the enquiry could, should and will ask", can we discuss without knowing 'any' of the facts?
A crew member was sadly lost. Was this an institutional situation caused by Clipper, a gear failure, some miscommunication by the rest of the team/crew? Without any facts, it is not possible to format any sensible question, it is just supposition by people who in the majority are weekend coast huggers with little or no experience of big boats or the conditions faced. MAIB will unravel based on facts available to them, they will not use guesswork.

 

[lw395]

.....
More controversial was a comment made to him by one of the coaches that Clipper crew often got flipped over the side and recovered by their tethers. It would be very interesting if there is any confirmation of the assertion.
Other less dramatic comments included one about how heavy the sails are, the genoa so needing three people working in unison to shift them up to deck........

That's worrying about routinely retrieving people by the tethers.
I'd have thought more than three people to shift a genoa.

 

[Resolution]

That's worrying about routinely retrieving people by the tethers.'.

I should stress this is a report of a conversation about many separate experiences, and unverified. Certainly worrying if true, but needs verification first.

 

[Sailingsaves]

To RESOLUTION:

Would you ask your friend if the lifejackets have a sprayhood, please?

I sailed on one of these boats for a few days and the level of fitness required is high.

Those sails are HEAVY.

In calm weather it took about seven of us to change a headsail.

After just a few days I was aching all over.

Maybe it should not be a race and allow easier sail handling mechanics to be employed; people would still have the adventure of a lifetime without needing such high levels of fitness (and possibly become exhausted). Even when off watch it can be difficult to sleep in the tiny bunks with cooking and other things going on around.

We had to use the life jackets provided. I never checked mine. It should (imo) have a very easy to deploy sprayhood.

 

[alant]

To RESOLUTION:

Would you ask your friend if the lifejackets have a sprayhood, please?

I sailed on one of these boats for a few days and the level of fitness required is high.

Those sails are HEAVY.

In calm weather it took about seven of us to change a headsail.

After just a few days I was aching all over.

Maybe it should not be a race and allow easier sail handling mechanics to be employed; people would still have the adventure of a lifetime without needing such high levels of fitness (and possibly become exhausted). Even when off watch it can be difficult to sleep in the tiny bunks with cooking and other things going on around.

We had to use the life jackets provided. I never checked mine. It should (imo) have a very easy to deploy sprayhood.

"I never checked mine"?
Hardly an endorsement, in a post which seems to somewhat criticise safe working on a Clipper boat.

 

[Sailingsaves]

"I never checked mine"? rolleyes
Hardly an endorsement, in a post which seems to somewhat criticise safe working on a Clipper boat.

You have made an assumption. ""seems to somewhat criticise safe working on a Clipper boat""

I simply asked a question if lj have sprayhoods. Simple enough?

I did not post to make an endorsement. I was on board in the Solent in calms. If going offshore I would be checking my cylinder was tightly screwed before every watch and know exactly how to deploy my sprayhood - I have used a few and some are rubbish and some are excellent.

 

[Blue Sunray]

A very close relative of mine is one of the statistics mentioned early in the thread, to me he is rather more than a number, however the quote below is, I think, apposite here amongst all the name-calling and armchair criticism.

"What I see are the cold and timid souls of little people all too often unable and unfit for the rigours of a full life: safely complacent, safely non-committal, safely at home, consumed in the certainty of their right to happiness and wish to drag others down to their miserable level of ordinariness. Unable to make sense of our lives in such abstract terms as courage, honour and integrity, we measure against the false gods of image, material value and self interest."

Lt Gen Sir Graeme Lamb KBE CMG DSO

 

[lw395]

A very close relative of mine is one of the statistics mentioned early in the thread, to me he is rather more than a number, however the quote below is, I think, apposite here amongst all the name-calling and armchair criticism.

"What I see are the cold and timid souls of little people all too often unable and unfit for the rigours of a full life: safely complacent, safely non-committal, safely at home, consumed in the certainty of their right to happiness and wish to drag others down to their miserable level of ordinariness. Unable to make sense of our lives in such abstract terms as courage, honour and integrity, we measure against the false gods of image, material value and self interest."

Lt Gen Sir Graeme Lamb KBE CMG DSO

In other words, 'man up' for the charge of the light brigade.

Thankfully I think the authorities take a dim view of running British vessels on that basis in peacetime.

 

[Blue Sunray]

In other words, 'man up' for the charge of the light brigade.

Thankfully I think the authorities take a dim view of running British vessels on that basis in peacetime.

Crack on, insignificant little man.

 

[john_morris_uk]

In other words, 'man up' for the charge of the light brigade.

Thankfully I think the authorities take a dim view of running British vessels on that basis in peacetime.

I think you totally and utterly miss the point of what was being said. It was nothing to do with manning up for some inappropriate, gung-ho, slapdash approach. In the context of this thread, it is about people too keen to jump to comment from their safe cozy homes on things that are beyond their capabilities.

 

[lw395]

I think you totally and utterly miss the point of what was being said. It was nothing to do with manning up for some inappropriate, gung-ho, slapdash approach. In the context of this thread, it is about people too keen to jump to comment from their safe cozy homes on things that are beyond their capabilities.

I'm not sure about that.
We're talking about Mr Lamb of the G3 Bahrain controversy are we not?

 

[NormanS]

I think you totally and utterly miss the point of what was being said. It was nothing to do with manning up for some inappropriate, gung-ho, slapdash approach. In the context of this thread, it is about people too keen to jump to comment from their safe cozy homes on things that are beyond their capabilities.

Sorry, but I think your elitism is here again. How do you know what is beyond people's capabilities? Some rather sweeping generalisations. Please note, I have made no pro or con comments on this thread, only on people's right to comment.

 

[lw395]

To be honest I take JM-UK's posts with a pinch of salt.
Like a few others on here, he is deeply involved with the industry he is defending.
As I see it, that self-serving industry is risking ruining things for amateurs.
(FTAOD I mean his involvement in yachting for reward, not his other careers.)

 

[Resolution]

To RESOLUTION:

Would you ask your friend if the lifejackets have a sprayhood, please

We had to use the life jackets provided. I never checked mine. It should (imo) have a very easy to deploy sprayhood.

Quite specifically, YES. He said they were modern and top quality.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Sorry, but I think your elitism is here again. How do you know what is beyond people's capabilities? Some rather sweeping generalisations. Please note, I have made no pro or con comments on this thread, only on people's right to comment.

Apologies if you think there was implied elitism on my part. I was trying to explain the Lt Generals comments and not commenting on a particular persons abilities or experience.

I freely admit that I do object to people making sweeping generalisations about sailing offshore on large yachts. Especially when they guess about things and criticise on the outcome of their guesses.

 

[john_morris_uk]

To be honest I take JM-UK's posts with a pinch of salt.
Like a few others on here, he is deeply involved with the industry he is defending.
As I see it, that self-serving industry is risking ruining things for amateurs.
(FTAOD I mean his involvement in yachting for reward, not his other careers.)

Show me where I have defended Clipper. I think you will find that I have said I will be the first to criticise them if they are found wanting.

Its the unjustifiable guesses and assumptions about tragic incidents that I object to.

I also think that people's comments on sailing big boats need to be seen through the lens of whether they've actually sailed one or ever even been offshore on an ocean leg. Anyone is entitled to ask questions or comment as appropriate, but they need to be open and honest about what experience they are commenting from and be less willing to jump to conclusions based on limited experience.

I also think jumping to any conclusion is inappropriate in this tragic episode.

 

[Uricanejack]

I doubt Mr Innes would share that view of the process.

I do not know how Mr Innes felt about the MAIB investigation.
The criminal trial was an entirely different procedure with a completely different goal. To determine if guilt on specific criminal charge could be proven.