Terrible news from Clipper

[bitbaltic]

I think you are wrong.

There have been several people questioning the amount of training the crew get. There have been allegations made that four weeks is inadequate. I suspect these people are speaking without experience. They are entitled to their opinion but one needs to weigh up how much credibility to give it.

I completely disagree. (Of course more training would always be better but there’s a pay off in training time vs output.)

I have sailed (and raced) large boats across oceans with some of the crew as complete novices. By large boats I mean 55’ and 67’ and with hank on sails. I’ve also been in the Southern Ocean although not sailed there.

It is certainly possible to manage the risk effectively although the way you run the boat may not be as effective in racing terms as a round the can racer or professional ocean race team.

Some of the comments questioning the training given were (in my humble opinion and with any respect due) completely gratuitous and inappropriate and would feed into bereaved families and friends grasping at things to blame.

The point being that somebody else with sufficient experience to have a valid opinion disagrees with you. Apart from saying that you disagree with them and rehearsing your own experience, you haven’t addressed that.

In fact it could be argued that the end result of your view- that Clipper’s training is sufficient for crossing oceans- means that anybody with sailing experience equivalent to Clipper’s training ought to feel able to comment on crossing oceans. That enfranchises most or all of the commentators on this thread!

You have set a very different level for being fit to cross oceans and being fit to comment on crossing oceans. And I think you are wrong.

Tough world.

 

[dslittle]

Statistics always have to be taken in context. A good friend of mine who is now ex MOD was explaining to me that the "safest" time statistically for the various active members of the forces was during conflict. When they were in theatre their lives and activities were far more closely controlled where during their down time the young men (and women no doubt) were doing what young men do best, exposing themselves to all sorts of dodgy activities such as motorcycling/driving, climbing, adventure sports generally, and of course drinking....... They lost far more personnel to these activities than they did to action.

I totally agree.

My point wasn't about statistics, I only mentioned that in anticipation of some who might not like my position on this.

Your post kind of reinforces my view of this unfortunate accident and other boating related deaths.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The point being that somebody else with sufficient experience to have a valid opinion disagrees with you. Apart from saying that you disagree with them and rehearsing your own experience, you haven’t addressed that.

In fact it could be argued that the end result of your view- that Clipper’s training is sufficient for crossing oceans- means that anybody with sailing experience equivalent to Clipper’s training ought to feel able to comment on crossing oceans. That enfranchises most or all of the commentators on this thread!

You have set a very different level for being fit to cross oceans and being fit to comment on crossing oceans. And I think you are wrong.

Tough world.

Read what I said again carefully. I’m trying hard not to comment on Clippers training. However I’ve suggested that some people’s claims that four weeks isn’t anywhere near enough are not from an informed position.

People can make up there own mind about the credibility of my opinion and I certainly haven’t suggested you MUST have sailed big boats with hank on sails across Oceans to have an opinion. However I believe in the face of such a tragedy people should be extremely careful about making rash ‘definitive’ statements about things they have only read about or have little direct experience of.

I humbly suggest that whilst every organisation needs to continually evaluate its performance and safety (especially in the light of serious accidents and fatalities) comments about four weeks not being enough are ill founded and not necessarily informed.

 

[johndove]

In a previous post it was mentioned that to minimise risk, it would be safer to remain in port.

During the timescale of these accidents, I wonder how many people have died in Marinas - statistically the most dangerous place to be in a boat. I have never seen a thread demanding that Marinas get closed down due to an accidental death.

Oh and precluding the 'lies, damn lies and statistics' argument another sad loss
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.be...eartbreak-belfast-man-found-dead-13903581.amp

How many marina with 12 boats have had 3 deaths in 3 incidents in the last 3 years.

1000,s of marina berths up and down the country, only 12 clipper yachts Racing! Well 11 now.

 

[alant]

The point being that somebody else with sufficient experience to have a valid opinion disagrees with you. Apart from saying that you disagree with them and rehearsing your own experience, you haven’t addressed that.

In fact it could be argued that the end result of your view- that Clipper’s training is sufficient for crossing oceans- means that anybody with sailing experience equivalent to Clipper’s training ought to feel able to comment on crossing oceans. That enfranchises most or all of the commentators on this thread!

You have set a very different level for being fit to cross oceans and being fit to comment on crossing oceans. And I think you are wrong.

Tough world.

"anybody with sailing experience equivalent to Clipper's training", must mean sailing on big yachts, which you seem to refute. Sailing on a big yacht, means gear that makes a normal yachts look like toys, the whole approach is different because of the greater inherent risks if something goes wrong. JM, is correct in his assertations, unless you have done it, you have little understanding of what is involved.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Read what I said again carefully. I’m trying hard not to comment on Clippers training. However I’ve suggested that some people’s claims that four weeks isn’t anywhere near enough are not from an informed position.

People can make up there own mind about the credibility of my opinion and I certainly haven’t suggested you MUST have sailed big boats with hank on sails across Oceans to have an opinion.

How much training time can you save if you'll be using hank-on sails? My last boat had them - much smaller than a Clipper boat, of course - and if anything I think they needed a bit more care than the roller reefing jib I have now.

 

[lpdsn]

How many marina with 12 boats have had 3 deaths in 3 incidents in the last 3 years.

1000,s of marina berths up and down the country, only 12 clipper yachts Racing! Well 11 now.

There'll be situations where marinas have had one death on one boat in one particular second. An appalling accident rate.

Notice I've just used exactly the same technique to treat the data as you have but have taken it a bit further.

Anyway, much of the debate and conclusions are meaningless till we have a decent set of facts, which probably won't be until the MAIB report is published.

 

[johndove]

There'll be situations where marinas have had one death on one boat in one particular second. An appalling accident rate.

Notice I've just used exactly the same technique to treat the data as you have but have taken it a bit further.

Anyway, much of the debate and conclusions are meaningless till we have a decent set of facts, which probably won't be until the MAIB report is published.

Was the marina at Fault? Or was it the person falling of their boat, missing their boat. Maybe after drink or 3?

 

[lw395]

"anybody with sailing experience equivalent to Clipper's training", must mean sailing on big yachts, which you seem to refute. Sailing on a big yacht, means gear that makes a normal yachts look like toys, the whole approach is different because of the greater inherent risks if something goes wrong. JM, is correct in his assertations, unless you have done it, you have little understanding of what is involved.

Anyone who's sailed dinghies, small yachts and medium sized yachts can see the progression. I say that having sailed bigger boats than the clippers.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Anyone who's sailed dinghies, small yachts and medium sized yachts can see the progression. I say that having sailed bigger boats than the clippers.

I'm not into willy waving over what sized boats I have sailed. I question whether progression is as obvious as you state. The forces and techniques involved in sailing large boats are related to but sometimes VERY different to those used on smaller craft.

I am into treating with a certain amount of contempt the facile (and frankly uniformed) comments some people have made about the Clipper training. Its tantamount to apportioning blame and its totally inappropriate.

This is not defending Clipper; I will be amongst the first to criticise them if they are found wanting in some negligent way.

However without the facts, people need to be extremely cautious about guessing and speculating. It adds nothing and doesn't help anyone who is bereaved who reads these pages.

In particular, people certainly need to be very cautious about making definitive statements about the quality of Clipper training that they know very little about.

 

[lpdsn]

Was the marina at Fault? Or was it the person falling of their boat, missing their boat. Maybe after drink or 3?

There would be various scenarios. Who would you want to be guilty?

 

[lw395]

I'm not into willy waving over what sized boats I have sailed. I question whether progression is as obvious as you state. The forces and techniques involved in sailing large boats are related to but sometimes VERY different to those used on smaller craft.

I am into treating with a certain amount of contempt the facile (and frankly uniformed) comments some people have made about the Clipper training. Its tantamount to apportioning blame and its totally inappropriate.

This is not defending Clipper; I will be amongst the first to criticise them if they are found wanting in some negligent way.

However without the facts, people need to be extremely cautious about guessing and speculating. It adds nothing and doesn't help anyone who is bereaved who reads these pages.

In particular, people certainly need to be very cautious about making definitive statements about the quality of Clipper training that they know very little about.

The facts are that some of us have met people who have undergone training with Clipper.
I would say the consensus is that the quality of the the product is shall we say 'variable'.
My view is that the safety of the boat will be greatly affected by the worst trained individual, discounting any who are never doing anything with a safety impact.
The problem is that it will often be not the worst trained individual who gets hurt. As illustrated by the skipper who came very close to losing his hand.
So I am making no derogatory comment about any individual on the boats. With the possible exception of some of those I have personally met.
How many accidents do there have to be before you see a problem bringing our sport and industry into disrepute?

 

[RobF]

The facts are that some of us have met people who have undergone training with Clipper.
I would say the consensus is that the quality of the the product is shall we say 'variable'.
My view is that the safety of the boat will be greatly affected by the worst trained individual, discounting any who are never doing anything with a safety impact.
The problem is that it will often be not the worst trained individual who gets hurt. As illustrated by the skipper who came very close to losing his hand.
So I am making no derogatory comment about any individual on the boats. With the possible exception of some of those I have personally met.
How many accidents do there have to be before you see a problem bringing our sport and industry into disrepute?

I think the problem is that seems to me that you are confusing opinion with fact.

Opinion of the training is variable:

Yes, fair enough

Safety of boat greatly affected by worst trained individual:

Bringing this to its logical conclusion, we must NEVER do Competent Crew courses - this would be lethal

Problem is that it's not often worst trained individual who is affected:

Yes, fair enough but this is a bit like saying that the best trained driver can still be shunted by a learner. This doesn't stop me from driving (and speaking personally, I'm not the best trained driver, but I've evaluated the risk of driving and am prepared to drive on UK roads)

I am making no derogatory comment

Fair enough, although it did seem you were making derogatory comments on Clipper's training based on some meetings you've had with people who have undergone training with Clipper

How many accidents do their have to be before there is a problem:

JM is suggesting that if there are lessons to be learned, let them be learned. Accidents happen in high risk sport. Clearly it's our job to learn from them and do our best to mitigate them. If Clipper are found to be negligent then let us blame them, but let's not start apportioning blame on the basis of limited fact and unlimited speculation.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I am into treating with a certain amount of contempt ...

With all due respect, your emotional reaction is not really relevant.

 

[john_morris_uk]

With all due respect, your emotional reaction is not really relevant.

I have no idea where you get the idea I am showing any emotion. My comments are merely statements of how I see things and my considered opinion on some people's willingness to jump in with both feet.

No emotion at all and I have tried to be considered in what I said.

Which is more than can be said for some of the comments and gratuitous speculation made by some in this thread.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have no idea where you get the idea I am showing any emotion.

"I am into treating with a certain amount of contempt ..." is statement about your emotional reaction. Which is fine, we're all allowed to have one, but it's not really germane to the discussion, which seems to me to have been courteous and restrained. Such speculation as has occurred has been mainly quoted from outside sources and treated with appropriate scepticism, such as the notion of the unfortunate chap being hit by the boom while working on the foredeck.

However, if the direction of discussion distresses you, perhaps the best thing would be to refer it to the Admin Team for consideration.

 

[john_morris_uk]

"I am into treating with a certain amount of contempt ..." is statement about your emotional reaction. Which is fine, we're all allowed to have one, but it's not really germane to the discussion, which seems to me to have been courteous and restrained. Such speculation as has occurred has been mainly quoted from outside sources and treated with appropriate scepticism, such as the notion of the unfortunate chap being hit by the boom while working on the foredeck.

However, if the direction of discussion distresses you, perhaps the best thing would be to refer it to the Admin Team for consideration.

Where’s my roll on the floor laughing emoji?

If you think treating something with contempt or disdain is emotional we seem to be using a different language.

Each to their own and others can judge what’s going on here. I won’t waste any more pixels.

 

[JumbleDuck]

If you think treating something with contempt or disdain is emotional we seem to be using a different language.

What are contempt or disdain (or approval, dismay, apprehension, relief or outrage) if not emotional responses? The OED seems to agree

as do the poor souls in Cambridge

"The feeling ..."

 

[john_morris_uk]

What are contempt or disdain (or approval, dismay, apprehension, relief or outrage) if not emotional responses?

At the risk of feeding the troll:

It’s called ‘being persuasive in your argument and is nothing to do with ‘my personal emotions’ as you allege.

The concept of “emotive language” is a technical term used to refer to the use of specific terms that have specific argumentative effects. In particular, they can affect the interlocutor’s emotions, and lead him or her to accept or view a certain viewpoint or policy more favorably.

. (From http://www.cambridgeblog.org/2015/03/emotive-language-in-argumentation-2/)

And I suggest what you are doing wth your troll like behaviour over playing with definitions is trying to divert the reader of this threads attention away from the mistakes you and others made in some of your earlier posts.

I make some valid points about the way some people jumped in with ill-informed comments and you try and divert attention by raising spurious questions about my emotions.

A man tragically died in a sailing accident. For the family there’s the added emotional burden of not being able to be at his funeral. It’s not the time to start playing with the meaning of ‘I treat with disdain the ill informed statements about x y or z.’

 

[alant]

What are contempt or disdain (or approval, dismay, apprehension, relief or outrage) if not emotional responses? The OED seems to agree

as do the poor souls in Cambridge

"The feeling ..."

Seems to me, that some on here are treating the Clipper organisation "with contempt", without any real knowledge of either their training system or the unfortunate accident.