Terrible news from Clipper

johndove said:
Not up to me to contact and complain to Clipper. I just don't think they should carry on if they keep losing people.

Leave it to the MCA and MAIB if they feel fit to carry on or not.

Also maybe the RYA have to decide if a RYA training centre can carry on losing people
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A post full of oxymorons and misconceptions.

What makes you think the RYA don’t have any influence?

The RYA have complete control over whether schools retain their recognition and authority to run as a sailing school. They take this role very seriously indeed. I’ve personal knowledge of schools going on warning and losing their recognition.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I personally have none, which is why, were I ever to think of doing one of these trips, I would have to rely on the organisers' risk assessment. Three deaths and one total loss so close together would not earn my wholehearted confidence.
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My remark wasn’t directed to you. (See the quote in my post.)

Three deaths and a total loss certainly need careful consideration but statistically may not be significant as demonstrated by several others.
 
JumbleDuck said:
They are stopping some people climbing Everest and they have twice recently stopped everybody from climbing it for a while. Your evident belief that Everest is free-for all for self-reliant adventurers was rather ill-founded.
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The Everest example is not a particularly lose one - figures vary but 282 deaths from 7646 summits suggests a death rate per summit of around 3.7%. A relative who summited had to climb past dead bodies left on the mountain.
I think we are in very different risk territory sailing wise, even in the Southern Oceans.
 
Perhaps now is the time for some quiet reflection and consideration for the family of the bereaved.

Then wait further specific facts before leaping to conclusions.

Those on here who have actually spent time working the foredeck on a yacht deep in the Southern Oceans probably have a right to a view.

I have only been in a Force 10 on an ex-British Steel boat, but didn’t get in front of the mast cockpit and it was in sheltered coastal waters. So I will not condem an organisation, skipper or crew based upon ignorance of the realities of the situation.
Perhaps other coastal and arm-chair pundits without Southern Ocean experience could do likewise and be patient.
 
dunedin said:
The Everest example is not a particularly lose one - figures vary but 282 deaths from 7646 summits suggests a death rate per summit of around 3.7%. A relative who summited had to climb past dead bodies left on the mountain.
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To the extent that one body, "Green Boots" was used as a waypoint on the mountain for eight years.

I think we are in very different risk territory sailing wise, even in the Southern Oceans.
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I agree, but it is still the case that the authorities take a keen interest in the Everest death rate and don't hesitate to ban groups or individuals, or to close the mountain altogether, if they think it justified on safety grounds.

I flew for a week in the French Alps, which is crazy dangerous. UK gliding has five fatalities in the average year, and most of these are old people having heart attacks while flying. In the French Alps they think it's a good year if fewer than fifty die. I was a nervous newcomer and kept well above the mountains - the local and the experts circle in thermals with their wingtips 10m or less from cliff faces. Yet despite the danger and the deaths, the French authorities let people risk their lives there, as they should. All amateurs, all deciding for themselves. Most people trying to climb Everest have paid other people to make the decisions for them, which is fine but does mean that the guide companies are under close scrutiny, as they should be.
 
dunedin said:
Perhaps now is the time for some quiet reflection and consideration for the family of the bereaved.

Then wait further specific facts before leaping to conclusions.

Those on here who have actually spent time working the foredeck on a yacht deep in the Southern Oceans probably have a right to a view.

I have only been in a Force 10 on an ex-British Steel boat, but didn’t get in front of the mast cockpit and it was in sheltered coastal waters. So I will not condem an organisation, skipper or crew based upon ignorance of the realities of the situation.
Perhaps other coastal and arm-chair pundits without Southern Ocean experience could do likewise and be patient.
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With respect, it’s a sailing forum, the topic is relevant and worthy of discussion, from anyone , no matter their experience. It is great that people speculate and comment, that a conversation happens. I would be more concerned if we dumbly looked on and said nothing, waiting on the official word.

Please don’t play the respect card to stifle discussion. No one is disrespecting the dead or bereaved.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
...It is great that people speculate and comment, that a conversation happens.
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Absolutely, it is only natural that we all show an interest in an incident that could easily happen to those of us that put to sea and in the absence of fact we will speculate and hypothesise about how it may have happened, however that is a subtle difference between doing that and making statements that cast dispersions on an individual or organisation without backing it up with appropriate evidence. That's how "Fake news" starts, and we all know how topical that is, and if Sugar Kane is who I think she is she should know that better than most.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
With respect, it’s a sailing forum, the topic is relevant and worthy of discussion, from anyone , no matter their experience. It is great that people speculate and comment, that a conversation happens. I would be more concerned if we dumbly looked on and said nothing, waiting on the official word.

Please don’t play the respect card to stifle discussion. No one is disrespecting the dead or bereaved.
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Whilst not wishing to stifle discussion, I suggest some of the wild speculations and willlingness to jump to criticise Clipper is completely inappropriate.

If you are bereaved you react in a variety of ways and anger and a desperate need to apportion blame is frequently part of that reaction. People search everywhere for reasons and any news on such a story and it’s reasonable to assume that this discussion on YBW may be seen by members of Simon Spears family or close friends. To bereaved and distressed people, speculative opinion can very quickly become fact and some of the rather uninformed comments made in this discussion are not helpful. (That’s my polite version of what I think.)
 
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john_morris_uk said:
Whilst not wishing to stifle discussion, I suggest some of the wild speculations and willlingness to jump to criticise Clipper is completely inappropriate.
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I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea that we should as a community be standing behind Clipper Ventures rather than their customers. Anyway, I haven't seen any significant criticism of Clipper here, just a general view that an organisation which operates without significant incident for twenty years and then has three deaths and a total loss within a couple of years merits scrutiny - internal and external - on whether these are unhappy accidents or whether they reflect something which could be addressed within the organisation.
 
john_morris_uk said:
I haven’t suggested anywhere that we should ‘stand behind the Clipper organisation’. I have suggested that now is not the time for some of the wild guesses as to the causes of this recent tragedy.
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Humm well kind Rev/ Mod you just might be right, BUT. as some of us these ere pages that do go Sailing there might be lessons to be learned, and similar stories to be told, from which we can all learn from ?

So perhaps lively, constructive, informative, polite opinions and comments are whats really required over this and any similar events in our Sailing World ?

Might suggest that, if the discussions on this and similar events can open the eyes to possible outcomes for just one 'wide eyed' person seeking or thinking about going on an experience then a lot has been achieved.

After all, information about these such Adventures I guess just might be a bit skewed towards the Companies gaining Persons who are ready and willing to pay for such an organised Adventure in good safe hands That I do not know as I am not at all attracted to such unnecessary dangerous Adventures, regarding them as an unnecessary risk to life and limb, and for what ? urg {:-(#
 
Shamaya said:
4 weeks of training, very short for those kind of vessels and that kind of sailing
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But how much training would be OK. The unfortunate victim of this incident had been on the boat some time, and was rather experienced beforehand. Four weeks training in this case seem almost irrelevant as the time spent in the race up to this point would have served as the best possible training.
 
CLB said:
But how much training would be OK. The unfortunate victim of this incident had been on the boat some time, and was rather experienced beforehand. Four weeks training in this case seem almost irrelevant as the time spent in the race up to this point would have served as the best possible training.
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It's not just the training of the poor chap who died. It is the training of each and every team member required to operate the boat, both as individuals and as a team.
Learning on the job while racing has limitations. A student to trainer ratio of more than 5:1 is limiting, and when the trainer is required to do the work and not just train people it is very difficult.
I don't know if everyone gets trained to do everything, or for fixed roles?
Four weeks would be a lot if everybody was starting from say, a level of being able to do every job on a Sigma 38 to a 'reasonable' standard.
 
C""apt Popeye said:
Humm well kind Rev/ Mod you just might be right, BUT. as some of us these ere pages that do go Sailing there might be lessons to be learned, and similar stories to be told, from which we can all learn from ?

So perhaps lively, constructive, informative, polite opinions and comments are whats really required over this and any similar events in our Sailing World ?

Might suggest that, if the discussions on this and similar events can open the eyes to possible outcomes for just one 'wide eyed' person seeking or thinking about going on an experience then a lot has been achieved.

After all, information about these such Adventures I guess just might be a bit skewed towards the Companies gaining Persons who are ready and willing to pay for such an organised Adventure in good safe hands That I do not know as I am not at all attracted to such unnecessary dangerous Adventures, regarding them as an unnecessary risk to life and limb, and for what ? urg {:-(#
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What "lessons to be learned"?
Unless " as some of us on ere go sailing", actually go sailing in the Southern Ocean, which you admit to not wanting to do, it has little that is relevant to Solent sailing on a Sigma 38.
 
The focus of this thread has, quite rightly, centred on the attributes or otherwise of the Clipper organisation & race, rather than on Simon and his terrible misfortune.

That said, since Simon embarked on his journey, I – and others – have enjoyed following his blog, which offers (often cheery) insight into participation in the race. For anybody interested in some lighter reading, it can be found here.

TJ.
 
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