Technodrive TM170 TM880A, TwinDisk engaging failure, low hours

[rafiki_]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

thanks P.,

but you really need a # to play, not a general "seal", which seal

anyway, we may know tomorrow

cheers

V.

Yep, cleverer people than me might speculate

 

[vas]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

OK,

removal of the box was much simpler than I thought, once we found a decent pole to hold the small winch, it was a matter of 20mins to get the box resting on the floor panel between the two engines.
However, took more than an hour to undo the bolt holding the flange to the axle in place (involving going back to the workshop to get a long lever and the puller for the flange...) It was well stuck, with loctite and a bitch to remove.
Anyway box opened very easily and looks nice shiny and basically brand new inside. Pulled out the assembled axles, conical bearings are unmarked, disks also look new, and #40 is nicely in place.

my bet is 17 0r 40 have poped out allowing the clutch pack to fall out, pushed by the piston 5 or 28, which then lets out the oil pressure.

I will have 5 bob on the above please.

so, David, I'm afraid you lost

Puzzled and not having the right type of puller to remove the top bearing in order to disassemble the thing, took it to a machinist who specialises in marine gear (engines, PTO, boxes) for checking and discussion. I explained all the story and the pressures registered on the gauge while changing from idle to ahead/astern. He just smiled and nodded..

He recons that once the cast part is worn (the one I replaced) the two sealing metal rings should be replaced straight away as they are worn in odd patterns and leak. He recons that the pressure loss may well be just from that.
Discussing, he also confirmed that he's come across a few boxes that had similar shimming problems with even lower hours than mine (one example only had 5h before failing to engage
I explained that I didn't replace the rings as I got the wrong size rings and he recons I should just order the rings and he'll reassemble. My mate says he'll charge less than a couple of hundred euro for his work, which is not bad.
Anyway, since I haven't got the right micrometers to check and measure what shims I need, I recon it's easier if he does the assembling shimming and testing. I was told they mount the box to the lathe, fill with oil and test before completing.
He's going to anyway dismantle the fwd axle, check and make sure that everything inside works fine and then reassemble.

i'll order the 1X2 rear rings and the 2X2 front rings for the axles so that he replaces the lot on both axles as a precaution.

I'm tempted to undo the pump and diverter valve assembly on stbrd engine as well and check what's going on there (mainly tell tales of wrong preload...), but I'll wait to have at least port engine working fine first

The challenge now is to remove the facing plate to the engine (which is a bloody thick and heavy piece) and get the rest of the parts to Spyros for testing/assembling. Med style mooring and a high transom is crap once you have to lift and move heavy things as passarelle is not that wide and you'll need two ppl + the 60-70kg of the box on the passarelle and dead flat seas to do it. Will probably end up undoing the bow, pulling the stern lines and bringing the bathing platform flush to the dock.

 

[rafiki_]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

Ok, sounds encouraging, and at least your mech seems to know what he doing. Please make sure that you video the transfer from the boat to shore, so at least if it does go down, we can all be there with you ��

 

[vas]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

naughty P.!

I've already have half the bits in the car, just the empty casing to move, not that bad.
Coming back to MiToS though it will be a heavy assembly, I hope I wont need a diver to bring it up from the seabed!
Dock is around 50cm above sea level (floating dock), bathing platform is around 20cm but almost a metre away, hence having to move the boat closer to make the move. It will be awkward for sure.

cheers

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

naughty P.!

I've already have half the bits in the car, just the empty casing to move, not that bad.
Coming back to MiToS though it will be a heavy assembly, I hope I wont need a diver to bring it up from the seabed!
Dock is around 50cm above sea level (floating dock), bathing platform is around 20cm but almost a metre away, hence having to move the boat closer to make the move. It will be awkward for sure.

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

Don't listen to rafiki, V.
Considering all the work you did with your boat, and last but not least this g/box rebuild, I'm sure you'll manage to move the bits around safely.
Christ, I wouldn't be surprised to see a pic of yourself jumping onboard with the rebuilt g/box under one harm, holding a toolbox with the other hand...
All the very best for the re-assembling! :encouragement:

 

[vas]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

Don't listen to rafiki, V.
Considering all the work you did with your boat, and last but not least this g/box rebuild, I'm sure you'll manage to move the bits around safely.
Christ, I wouldn't be surprised to see a pic of yourself jumping onboard with the rebuilt g/box under one harm, holding a toolbox with the other hand...
All the very best for the re-assembling! :encouragement:

you confuse me with Hulk P...

I have indeed put on weight with the rebuilt, half of it is muscles above the COG, unfortunately the other half is floating enhancements near the COG
I actually have come across the bringing heavy things onboard issue a few times already, side docking seems to be the only viable solution.

On a serious note, I realise that the thread title is not going to be very helpful if someone with a TwinDisk or Technodrive box has a similar problem, so planning to ask admin to rename it for easy searching and future reference to something like:

Technodrive TM170 TM880A, TwinDisk engaging failure, low hours.

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

admin changed the title, thanks!

Spiros managed the day before yesterday to assemble the box. Took him three goes, as he recons someone has been playing with this box, probably opened once sometime in the past. Didn't like the way it was assembled he says. I can trust him as I've realised he's the official IVECO installer for Central Greece (didn't know I was told by someone else and he confirmed).
Anyway, to cut a long story short, got to his workshop with the cooler and pipes and the 500psi gauge at hand. Filled up with SAE30 oil as apparently recommended on the manual and mounted the box on his massive lathe. Connected pipes and cooler to have a circulating path for the oil, fitted the gauge and started the lathe at 450rpm. Pressure immediately jumped to 320 or so, engaged both astern and ahead, same pressure 360+ (oil was cold)
Shaft turned fine and with the same agility and speed both fwd and rwd.
So, officially the case is closed. Verdict:


wrongly shimmed ahead axle,
axle wobbled a tiny bit and enough to score and carve half a mil off the diverter valve body
grindings were found on the oil filter when I started checking the box before diassembling it
score was at the exact spot that oil from the pump was fed to the axle surrounded with two "rings" sealing the oil path to the axle
solution was to replace the diverter body cast iron bit that was damaged (450euro or so) and the 2 oil pressure rings on the shaft (20euro or so)
170euro was what Spiros charged for disassembling everything, checking disks plates et al, replacing rings, reassemble and shim properly (I bought extra shimms!) the box.


Rather happy to reach a solution to this, got the box and with the help of the friend and boatyard neighbour, fitted it today.
Cleaned carefully the flaking colour, and oils and dirt, primed and painted (found a decent match on paint that went into a spraycan, so quite happy).

Pics tomorrow with the commisioning report.

cheers

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Brilliant result Vas. Another significant task ticked off. Perhaps you can start enjoying Mitos now?

 

[superheat6k]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

Nice one Vas.

Let us know how the sea trial I presume you will undertake goes.

Can I publish your tale on the Corvette website please - interesting learning curve for anyone with a hydraulic box.

 

[vas]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

Brilliant result Vas. Another significant task ticked off. Perhaps you can start enjoying Mitos now?

I'm enjoying every part of the ownership P.
Yes, getting closer to being used as planned. A bit of carpentry to report but tomorrow or next week.

Nice one Vas.

Let us know how the sea trial I presume you will undertake goes.

Can I publish your tale on the Corvette website please - interesting learning curve for anyone with a hydraulic box.

yes, I'll report on the sea trial, although I have to check the fouling before pressing too hard, but will definitely show how she behaves.

T., feel free to publish the info or link to the thread. The whole point of being analytic and trying to document work carried out is just that, help others not to have to spent 2 months to figure out what's going on and waste money buying wrong parts (or not buying all parts needed as in this case)

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

just managed some time to convert the pics and upload them to my server.
Job officially close, shafts work fine both ahead and astern. Weather turned sour last week, so spending some time working inside, so no trial done yet.

next two pics show the box assembled and with a great difficulty shifted on the aft deck:

next pic is the mightly hole on the port side soon to be filled:

a bit of an issue hoisting it down, ended up more or less holding it in order to let it hang from the massive pipe as it was way too low:

fit in place, cleaned and ready for painting and assembling:

Currently all finished, hooked to the morse controls and regulated.

Bit of testing on the spot when hauling the mooring (fitted last week) but that was mainly in astern to pull and settle the anchors.

A few more boxes to tick before I consider the MiToS project finished (never will!) but this hurdle is over. Thanks for all the help!

cheers

V.

 

[KevB]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

"A few more boxes to tick before I consider the MiToS project finished" Ha!!! in your dreams Vas. I have a relatively new boat and the "to do" list always goes on and on....

Great news the gearbox is sorted.

 

[rafiki_]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

Love the bit of string dangling down from your lifting pole��

 

[vas]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

"A few more boxes to tick before I consider the MiToS project finished" Ha!!! in your dreams Vas. I have a relatively new boat and the "to do" list always goes on and on....

yes the list may go on and on, heck even JFM's Match2 has a decent list of to-do I'm sure, John?
The point is to be able to use the boat and not only sweat working on it on the hard. That's new to me after 4 full years on the hard, so I"m happy. I'm a simple man you know

Love the bit of string dangling down from your lifting pole��

it's not a "string" Paul, is a serious rope out of which the winch was hanging. Don't forget gbox is around 60kg with the adapter plate, so nothing serious that a 8mm triple strand rope wont handle...

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

Vas, you have done a brilliant job in bringing MiTos back to life. Your dedication and tenacity is a lesson to many of us, and you now have a boat you have faith in, that you can start enjoying with your family after many difficult and intriguing twists and turns. Your carpentry skills are fantastic, and your ability to find a solution in a seriously challenging situation is humbling. Very well done, and keep us informed of your progress.
The hard top looks a great project!

 

[superheat6k]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

So now we need a pic of the rooster tail !

Well done.

 

[MapisM]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

Vas, you have done a brilliant job in bringing MiTos back to life. Your dedication and tenacity is a lesson to many of us, and you now have a boat you have faith in, that you can start enjoying with your family after many difficult and intriguing twists and turns. Your carpentry skills are fantastic, and your ability to find a solution in a seriously challenging situation is humbling.

Amen to all that! :encouragement:

 

[vas]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

thanks P & P, I've said it before and I'll stress it again and again:

if this forum wasn't available and alive, I can assure you that MiToS would not be floating now, I may not have dared buying it in the first place!

The abundance of knowledge readily available in here is mind-boggling. Too many examples to mention, but even this exact thread with the broken g/box, I wouldn't dare take it apart if it wasn't for the encouragement, explanation and ideas I got from you lot. Yes, I'd probably fix it at an unbearable cost by calling an expert, but it wouldn't be the 170euro labour for sure! Nor would I know how the thing works and be prepared with the right oil pressure gauges and senders to monitor it's condition before any other failure. For sure, if the p/o had installed the oil pressure gauges in the right spot and NOT in the oil temp spot (just to fill the hole!), and if he'd wired them, I would be able to notice the much lower pressure and sort out something in advance...

so my thanks goes to all of you in here, these long and analytic threads are my contribution to fellow boaters that may come in a similar situation and start looking for solutions.

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

Re: port gearbox works only on reverse

recommended pressures from the twin disk manual are:
290-335 idle
275-335 ahead or astern at idle
idle is around 600rpm.
Mind, recommended values are for hot oil, my tests were with nice cold fresh oil, so should drop a bit when hot but well within the limits.

reviving a 3yr old thread, apologies.

no, gbox is (touch wood) fine!
I'm about to purchase two sensors for checking oil pressure as the one of the two fitted but never connected (on the wrong spot but let's not get into that...) is broken now that I measured it. For the record they are 25bar but based on the whole setup I'm not sure they were meant for these gearboxes or were just placed there to plug the M10X1 hole...

In theory a 25bar sensor should do (just) but these are the idle values. Boat is in the marina and not going anywhere for a while.
Question to ppl having gearbox oil pressure gauges on their dash (and a good memory!)
Do the values from idle to WOT change, if they do, do they change a lot?

Looks like it's safer to go for a 40bar sensor but the next cheap option is 60bar which is a bit too much I recon.

Any ideas?
Porto what does your MAN dash say on that? any pics?

cheers

V.