Tech

[boomerangben]

Post was about the system as a whole going down, not about localised jamming. Ca we all really not do without gps for a while coastal?

I agree that a whole system failure is highly unlikely and therefore not worth worrying about.

I would say plotters are at their most useful when approaching an unfamiliar harbour or anchorage. Particularly in poor weather and in fact more useful than paper charts. I think this is where localised jamming might cause an issue for someone who hasn’t had the chance to learn about trad nav.

The OP was wondering why traditional navigation is still taught when phones, iPads, 5”, 12”, 40” screens are available. Tech is great but a jammer could render it fallible, just as large metal object can with a compass.

 

[[194224]]

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The OP was wondering why traditional navigation is still taught when phones, iPads, 5”, 12”, 40” screens are available.
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I think when teaching, it is sensible to use a relatively universal set of equipment that offers cost-effective entry for the learner. A paper chart with pencils, a plotter or parallel rule, a distance measuring device etc. is pretty much all that is required to get going. It is technology agnostic. It should equip the learner with enough background to take that learning and apply it in the context of his/her chosen electronics solution. Of course in the future there will be courses that are conducted using electronic platforms; indeed for commercial people that's already there (although at present they all learned their craft with pencil and paper). There are standards for many aspects of ECDIS for instance that have to be followed; presentation, operation etc. but the consumer field comprises a disparate collection of proprietary systems and making courses for people who own one particular model of plotter isn't likely to find much favour.

Once learned though the skills could be applied whatever the technical platform.

 

[lustyd]

Would you take all that with you if you went on your pals boat? Or on a charter holiday in, say, Greece?

Just sayin.

On a normal holiday I would take two GPS and mapping watches, phone, laptop and handheld GPS plotter. If I planned to sail I would also take a PLB, and if i were cycling I'd also have two bike computers with GPS in my bag. I admit I'm not the average person

 

[lustyd]

I would say plotters are at their most useful when approaching an unfamiliar harbour or anchorage. Particularly in poor weather and in fact more useful than paper charts. I think this is where localised jamming might cause an issue for someone who hasn’t had the chance to learn about trad nav.

But then, that's pilotage, not navigation. Different subject entirely, and if you're actively using a paper chart for pilotage then there are bigger issues than GPS jamming.

 

[lustyd]

I think when teaching, it is sensible to use a relatively universal set of equipment that offers cost-effective entry for the learner. A paper chart with pencils, a plotter or parallel rule, a distance measuring device etc. is pretty much all that is required to get going

But then, if most people will never use paper after the course it might be better teaching them the skills they actually will use. A 3 point fix is smashing on a paper chart, but rather pointless when the lines go through the position mark on electronic nav systems. Better, surely, to show someone how to use the cursor to confirm bearings of objects.

 

[capnsensible]

On a normal holiday I would take two GPS and mapping watches, phone, laptop and handheld GPS plotter. If I planned to sail I would also take a PLB, and if i were cycling I'd also have two bike computers with GPS in my bag. I admit I'm not the average person

I take swimming trunks and sunscreen.

 

[capnsensible]

But then, if most people will never use paper after the course it might be better teaching them the skills they actually will use. A 3 point fix is smashing on a paper chart, but rather pointless when the lines go through the position mark on electronic nav systems. Better, surely, to show someone how to use the cursor to confirm bearings of objects.

The RYA coastal courses do that. You learn the basics at Day Skipper.

 

[lustyd]

I take those too, but I use the watches to track my swims in pools and open water, as well as my running. the handheld I use to track hikes. My holidays tend to be quite active

 

[lustyd]

The RYA coastal courses do that. You learn the basics at Day Skipper.

Yes to be fair the RYA were faster off the mark than the DVSA in adopting guidance for using tech

 

[[194224]]

But then, if most people will never use paper after the course it might be better teaching them the skills they actually will use. A 3 point fix is smashing on a paper chart, but rather pointless when the lines go through the position mark on electronic nav systems. Better, surely, to show someone how to use the cursor to confirm bearings of objects.

I don't disagree with that at all, clearly if you can teach both any required theoretical component along with demonstrations of the practical application then it has to be the preferred solution. I was just musing really; not trying to defend the indefensible for dogmatic reasons.

 

[rotrax]

I take those too, but I use the watches to track my swims in pools and open water, as well as my running. the handheld I use to track hikes. My holidays tend to be quite active

I don't run while on holiday these days.

Last time I tried I could not keep my wine in the glass...................................

 

[boomerangben]

But then, that's pilotage, not navigation. Different subject entirely, and if you're actively using a paper chart for pilotage then there are bigger issues than GPS jamming.

Is safe to assume then, that you do as per the RYA syllabus and write a pilotage plan for you approaches to landfall? Or are you looking at a plotter?

I disagree, I believe pilotage is part of navigation - you use paper charts and other documents to generate a pilotage plan so relevant here

I’m not trying to say GPS should not be used or trusted - that would be hypocrisy. I am saying that there is good reason for trad nav to continue to be taught. You know how to do it, as do most of the others here. But how many more people buy themselves a boat, a plotter and head off boating without ever looking at or purchasing a chart, Portland plotter, dividers, understand deviation and variation…………. Is that really what we should be encouraging?

 

[lustyd]

Is safe to assume then, that you do as per the RYA syllabus and write a pilotage plan for you approaches to landfall? Or are you looking at a plotter?

Not at all. A plotter at the helm can be used as part of pilotage. A chart at the chart table means you're at the chart table, and the added time of marking up the chart makes it unsuitable, hence the written plan. Traditional navigation is set out in a certain way for good reason, not all of that translates well to modern navigation. As I've said many times on the forum, it takes time and an open mind to learn modern navigation techniques. Too many people try to use a plotter like a paper chart and they fail because it's not a paper chart, not because the plotter is incapable.

 

[Roberto]

when I can use my ipad or bring up an app on my phone?

A lightning can wipe out all electronics, not so frequent up these latitudes but definitely so in warmer places.
It happened to me once, the compass itself kept on spinning continuously, on a 80 miles crossing we arrived 10miles from the destination, roughly steering with the direction of the sun under the clouds.

 

[lustyd]

A lightning can wipe out all electronics, not so frequent up these latitudes but definitely so in warmer places.
It happened to me once, the compass itself kept on spinning continuously, on a 80 miles crossing we arrived 10miles from the destination, roughly steering with the direction of the sun under the clouds.

I'm confused, are you telling us that electronics can be affected by lightning, or that any navigation can be affected by lightning? If your compass no longer works, that's not electronics at fault and if anything suggests that a handheld plotter in the oven would be a good solution in your example.

Paper can be wiped out by water, much more common on boats than lightning.

 

[LadyInBed]

not because the plotter is incapable.

More so is that the user hasn't taken the time to find out what facilities the plotter has and learn how to use them.

 

[TwoFish]

The OP was wondering why traditional navigation is still taught . . . .

I suspect that, rather than 'wondering' about anything the now-silent 'OP' (bot?) was auto-generating forum content. What I don't understand is what is to be gained from that.

 

[Blueboatman]

I suspect that, rather than 'wondering' about anything the now-silent 'OP' (bot?) was auto-generating forum content. What I don't understand is what is to be gained from that.

Gosh , you’re right!
It’s a friggin no-bot
It did another post on classics which was even weirder

 

[ash2020]

I always keep a set of up to date charts on the boat - tucked down the back of a cushion. In case suddenly all the GPS satellites and all of my 5 electronic nav. aids fail at the same time!

 

[boomerangben]

Bots! Another fine mess tech has got us into! .

It’s actually quite scary. And sad. Whilst technology is great, where are we going to end up? I’m very happy using computers and other electronic gizmos but I still find great pleasure in writing with a fountain pen, drawing with a pencil, doing maths without a calculator (still do manual sums at work, because it’s quicker than reaching for a calculator) and plotting lines on charts. But I am seriously looking at making a raspberry pi driven plotter for my little boat.