Tax relief for pleasure boating

[IanfMorris]

The pleasure boating industry must be careful that is does not protest too much. There is something wrong with getting tax free fuel just to go for a spin up the Solent or wherever while other, and often less fortunates have to pay tax on their fuel to travel to work.
We will look very silly indeed if this debate comes out into the wider population especially as most of the electorate do not own a boat, let alone one with 500hp on board. In reality there may be a few owners who will find the extra cost unbearable but to the majority of keen power boaters I suspect it will be afordable.
Let us not both loose the debate, as we will, and get a bad name into the bargain.

 

[SoulFireMage]

Interesting first post there.

I personally don't like the idea that the EU can dictate what our own government does about our own tax issues. Tax isn't harmonised across all the EU so why should they have any say at all? Bad move this superstate stuff IMHO.

It will then come down to priorities really. Is it that important that the government scrape the pound of flesh further off of what isn't a huge source of tax anyway? I'm surprised that any country outside the UK pays attention to something this minor in scale. I feel they should mind their own business and leave the UK government to enact the will of it's own population on this one. I would be gutted if the majority had voted to get rid of red diesel for boaters-but I'm biased aren't I? and it IS meant to be a democracy.

 

[mobo1]

I would just like to point out that red diesel is not tax free!

 

[sarabande]

Welcome to the centre of the nautical universe. It's not always the painful black hole that it is made out to be.

It sounds as if you have a background in tax / finance. Can you guess at any ways the government might be jumping, perhaps with a campaign to highlight the environmental and financial impact of large numbers of sober and upright citizens hurtling around the briney whilst multi-hundreds of horses slurp up the red stuff, and convert it to noise, CO2,and carcinogenic particulate matter ?

Do you have any views on possible European harmonisation on this matter ?

 

[rickp]

Re: Tax relief for pleasure flights

You may as well say the same thing about the airlines and their "tax relief" on aviation fuel.

Rick

 

[IanfMorris]

If we are not careful we will play into their hands and be made to look like the wealthy not caring about the env etc. Just look at the way the gov played the foxhunters, it just became a sort of class thing. Yes I know boating is different it's just the tactics that will be similar, it may be neccessary to give a little to win a lot. Over and out, the ball is back with you all, be carefull.

 

[cliff]

[ QUOTE ]
Over and out, the ball is back with you all, be carefull.

[/ QUOTE ]Hmmm, sounds like you are not included in the boating fraternity. "over and out" - too much american TV perhaps? "the ball is back with you all - you do not include yourself in the argument then?

Do I smell a troll? - yes!

One could take the argument a stage further and say why should holiday makers benefit from low tax aviation fuel? O.K. do away with the derogation on red but at the same time do away with the cheap aviation fuel for "leisure users" AKA - tourists. Let us see what the general public think of the loss of cheap av-gas or Jet-A fuel when their holiday flights suddenly costs them double or even triple.
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"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>

 

[sarabande]

Possibly linked to
financial maze

Are we another item on the agenda ?

 

[sarabande]

I meant to say that there's an IanfMorris with high expertise on that site.

 

[Bodach na mara]

Yes, we do use it for pleasure and yes, it is tax rebated (but not tax free.) However, as has been pointed out before, the penal rate of tax on white diesel is because it is used on the roads and the tax is to pay for construction, repair, maintenance and policing of these roads. If you do not use the fuel on the road, why should you be required to pay road related excise duty, whether you use the fuel for profit (when you can offset the cost against other taxes) or pleasure (when you can't)?

 

[Llyscoed]

There is one recurring misconception in a number of the posts on red diesel. It is not true that the EU is im posing the end of the derogation on the UK. Taxation matters require unanimous agreement from all member states at the EU Council meetings. In 2004 British civil servants at the relevant Council meeting raised no objection to the ending of the derogation. Had they done so we would not now be faced with this threat. So officers representing the UK government allowed this to happen, and once a decision has been made at EU Council level it is extremely difficult to get it reversed. And it may prove embarrasing for the government in a small way too. Perhaps if we spent less time whingeing about the EU and got properly involved do that in future our civil servants do not let such matters pass, life would be a lot better.

 

[SimonC]

I think the key difference between hunting and red diesel is that the government has already expressed its support for red diesel. They're not playing anyone off against anyone, or trying to present this as a class issue. And the EU doesn't have to do anything of the sort, it just has to say 'no', as far as I can tell. Class and/or public support don't really come into it.

 

[joebloggs]

Now that we know the dangers of burning non-renewable carbon-based fuel should we not all be finding ways of burning less of the stuff. Charging people more for fuel seems a sensible start. Surely you must agree that boat owners have been extremely fortunate to have had cheap diesil for so long, as have the airlines and their passengers.
It's just that now the party's coming to an end. There are other toys we can play with. Dinghy racing is brilliant.

 

[cliff]

It is hard to go away for a 2 week mini-cruise in a dinghy! let alone do much else.
For many their boat is their holiday transport and accommodation rolled into one. On a recent 3 week holiday we used about 5 gallons of diesel, now I wonder how many hundreds of gallons we would have used had we gone for a package holiday and jetted off somewhere.

I do not believe in rationing by cost.
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"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>

 

[joebloggs]

Fair enough, but then I guess at 5 gals of fuel it's not going to put you under a great deal of finacial pressure to pay the tax. There are those, however, who just waste vast amount of fuel in their vast an unnecessary Gin Palaces.
Many people go for holidays in motor homes. They pay full fuel tax. I fail to see why boat owners should claim to be a special case.

 

[cliff]

[ QUOTE ]
Many people go for holidays in motor homes. They pay full fuel tax. I fail to see why boat owners should claim to be a special case.

[/ QUOTE ]Not in the U.K.! The taxes in the UK are far too high as it is. It is time for the Govt. to cut spending, nay wasting, money rather than just saying "we want more".

Apart from that the sea is resurfaced twice a day at no cost to the Govt. unlike roads which require maintenance.

No, this is a tax for the sake of having another or more tax without considering the effects.

I think you will find the projected effects on the boating (support) industry and tourist industry are well documented elsewhere.

Next you will be suggesting a "wind" tax /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[troll mode]
I do agree though that the MoBos/Gin Palaces etc do use what I would class as obscene amounts of fuel. Better we keep red for sail boats and tax the rest /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[/troll mode] /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

>>>
There are other toys we can play with. Dinghy racing is brilliant.
>>>

You are almost right. It is less brilliant:

with a 4 year old
when there is no wind
when it is p1ssing with rain
when it is cold
when you need to take a leak
when you want to sleep on board
etc
Taxing boat fuel is another example of the lefty politics of jealousy at work, looks like action but doesn't lose votes, unlike doubling the cost of airfares to Benidorm.

 

[joebloggs]

I wouldn't be surprised if non-motor-boat users were jealous. Very cheap fuel for boat-owners to burn for leisure!
Jealousy is sometimes a valid and appropriate reaction.

Boat owners have, as I said, been lucky for a long time, and now that there is a chance that they may have to pay a bit extra for this limited resource they are, understandably unhappy. The fact that they don't like paying does mean that the EEC is not doing a sensible and responisble thing in getting the users to pay for the cost of their pleasure.
I dread to think what the true cost of burning all this fuel (in boat, plane and car) will be for future generations.

 

[cliff]

Sounds like you are very jealous yourself.

FWIW the cost of "white" in frogland is not much more than the cost of "red" in the U.K. So O.K. lets have a level playing field and DROP the cost of road (white) diesel to match the frogs.

As I said before you are bitching on about a subject you evidently have not studied in particular with regard to the overall loss of revenue.
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"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>

Again I say increase the cost of aviation fuel, after all "why should joe public get reduced rate fuel for flying off on his holiday to the "costas" - is that not leisure use?

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

No details, new user. Troll, or possible Green Party apparatchik wearing lentils and eating sandals or summat

Not nowt on aviation either...