"Talk to a sailmaker" they said - and look what happened...

[skyflyer]

Looking at options for a new genny. Got quotes from five south coast sailmakers and have spoken with three, trying to come up with some sort of cost-benefit analysis - i.e. is it worth spending the extra for XYZ.

Just when I think I've understood something, the next guy I speak to repudiates the statement, and around and around we go.

So can I ask "the forum team" to comment on the following points which I THINK is what I have been told, although it is quite likely I may have misunderstood - however in each case a different sailmaker has contested the statement as being wrong!

1) A bi-radial construction is a waste of money with Dacron, as the cloth cannot be woven in a way to take the stresses in that direction. There is a "better" dacron for this but it's still not that good.

2) For a given sail type/usage there is little to choose between the 'big name' sailcloth suppliers (Bainbridge, Challenge, Dimension, Contender) . i.e. there will be a 'most suitable for your stated boat and style of sailing' choice from each manufacturer, with little to choose between them and after that you might as well go with the sailmakers preference. Put another way, you can get all worked up about choice for no real benefit.

3) For a non-racing leisure cruiser, making short coastal passages and occasional longer ones, on a 20 year old boat, laminates and high performance fabrics are a waste of money.

The one point every sailmaker I have spoken to agrees on, is that every other sailmaker talks a lot of bull***t about sails


(extra points if you can guess which manufacturer was the source of which statement!)

 

[Tranona]

You have it sussed!, particularly 2 and in part 3.

No such thing as cost/benefit analysis for sails, just that performance generally increases with price, but you may not get any quantifiable benefit.

Really no different from many other consumer choices, you make your decision based on the arguments you find most convincing. Just as an example, go to five different electrical stores for a recommendation for a new washing machine (as we have just done) and you will get contradictory statements and the comment that they are all a much of a muchness for a given spec.

At the end of the day if you go to a well established sailmaker you are highly unlikely to be disappointed with your purchase. It is a very competitive industry, and as you will see if you search the forum on the subject you will find almost an overwhelming satisfaction with choice, and praise for nearly all the popular ones!

 

[earlybird]

1) Possibly
2) Probably
3) Definitely
IMHO of course!

 

[Bobc]

For a furling genoa on a cruising boat, forget laminated sails. They don't like UV, and don't like flapping (they tend to destroy themselves quite quickly).

So dacron is your option. Ignore the manufacturers and just go with a decent weight of cloth and make sure it's well constructed. Forget bi-radial - total waste of money, but get a foam pad in the luff (keeps the shape better when reefed).

That's it really. Then just choose the sailmaker you trust to do a good job and actually deliver you a sail on-time.

 

[langstonelayabout]

Agreed. Go for one of the main brands of sailcloth from a reputable sailmaker and you’re going to be pleased with it.

If you go with a local sailmaker, encourage them to measure your boat so the sail will fit correctly, first time.

Dacron will hold together longer for a bog standard cruiser. When I went for a new R/R genoa last year I went with Dacron, a white anti-UV strip and horizontal cut. Ideal for UK/Channel cruising. I just wished that I’d gone for the foam insert in the luff of the genoa to keep the sail shape when reefed.

Over the years I’ve had sails of most kinds from a variety of large and small lofts. For cruiser sails I seem to keep going back to Kemp sails. (No interests other than as a repeatedly satisfied customer)

 

[pmagowan]

I just told Crusader sails what sort of sailing I had in mind, my preference re cut of sail with regards to risk of taking a wave (i.e. slightly higher cut foot) and that I was prepared to pay for whatever quality they considered necessary. They sent me a sail which arrived way in advance of when it was required, fitted perfectly has a padded luff, balances the boat, has a UV cover and is as good now as it was 5 years ago. It was competitively priced. What it is made of I now have no recollection (?dacron) but they were very friendly, appeared knowledgable and were very efficient. I chose them because so many people on this forum, and others, recommended them. If I was planning anything unusual I may have had closer and more in depth discussions with them but they will be my sailmakers unless their service suddenly deteriorates in the future.

 

[sailorman]

My 8 season Biradial from Crusader is still good,as was the cost

 

[Concerto]

Just had new sails from Kemp and I am very pleased with them. I went with a Vectran cloth on both, for longer life. Full length battens on the main with a loose foot. Padded foam luff with white sacraficial on the horizontal cut genoa.

Their page on sail fabrics is very informative. http://www.kempsails.com/yacht-sails/sail-fabric.html If you contact them for information try chatting to Owen.

Basically you get what you pay for. So source the sail maker you like and can afford, then go with them.

 

[dom]

1. Agreed if you go Dacron

2. 100% agree

3. Modern cruising laminates are just as long lasting as Dacron and the choice comes down to how you sail your boat / personal preferences. Incidentally there are other high-mod traditionally woven fabrics: Vectram, Hydranet, etc. I'd personally go lam genny every time because it won't blow out of shape so quickly.
Times move on, so why not if budget allows?

 

[johnalison]

There are definite advantages with laminate, even for a cruising sailor like me. You can rely on the shape being unchanged for the life of the sail, which for my last sail was over twelve years doing over 2000 miles per year. UV cover is necessary, but I found a hoisted cover unsatisfactory since raising and lowering it abraded the taffeta.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

1) A bi-radial construction is a waste of money with Dacron, as the cloth cannot be woven in a way to take the stresses in that direction. There is a "better" dacron for this but it's still not that good.

Not necessarily. My bi-radial genoa sets perfectly; much depends on the way the panels are designed and assembled.

2) For a given sail type/usage there is little to choose between the 'big name' sailcloth suppliers (Bainbridge, Challenge, Dimension, Contender) . i.e. there will be a 'most suitable for your stated boat and style of sailing' choice from each manufacturer, with little to choose between them and after that you might as well go with the sailmakers preference. Put another way, you can get all worked up about choice for no real benefit.

Not quite. What is more important is not the name of the supplier but the construction of the fabric, especially the pick count (higher is better) and the amount of filler used (less is usually better) to give the required 'hand' to the fabric. Lower quality fabric has a lower pick that is camouflaged through a high content of filler. Crumple a sample of the fabric in your hand and then examine it closely for whitish marks that show where there were the creases; the more evident these crease marks, the higher is the filler content. On a good fabric these would be barely visible.

3) For a non-racing leisure cruiser, making short coastal passages and occasional longer ones, on a 20 year old boat, laminates and high performance fabrics are a waste of money.

I fully agree. My boat is a 43-year old plastic classic that can still show a clean pair of heels to many other modern boats of her size on most points of sailing. Having the latest wonder cloth would not make much difference, if any. If it were a racing machine and I had deeper pockets then, yes, it would.

The one point every sailmaker I have spoken to agrees on, is that every other sailmaker talks a lot of bull***t about sails

That would also apply to most of what you will read on this forum, this posting included!

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I had an interesting demonstration at Goachers when I visited. He took 3 samples of fabric, about 30cm square, & cut a sharp large v in each one. With the plain Dacron I could tear the fabric by hand pulling against the corner of the v. With the Vectran type fabric I could do the same only after he nailed it to a door post & I stood in the gash. With a carbon sailcloth absolutely nothing I could do would enlarge the cut, not even by a mm.

 

[skyflyer]

well to elaborate a bit I have one sailmaker telling me that the extra spend on a (dacron) biradial is worth it and another saying it isn't and to stick with crosscut.
(Laminates/Hydranet etc aren't really within budget so a bit of a distraction.)
The cost of the two are not that far apart 15% extra if I go bi-radial with the company that (obviously) doesn't think its a waste!

I am attracted to biradial as I understand (more bull??) that they retain better shape when reefed. I'd have a foam luff in either one, anyway.

Both companies are highly respected and spoken well of on this forum!

 

[dom]

I am attracted to biradial as I understand (more bull??) that they retain better shape when reefed. I'd have a foam luff in either one, anyway.

Both companies are highly respected and spoken well of on this forum!

Whether the 15% uplift in price is worth it is entirely dependent on each individual fabric's ability to withstand stretching in different dimensions.

Ask the chap recommending bi-rads why he suggests this cut for that specific cloth and also if his advice would apply to all cloths? I very much doubt that he'll answer 'yes' to the second question!

 

[lampshuk]

I've just taken delivery of a 135% Dacron bi-radial from Crusader Sails and it's gorgeous. Sets beautifully. Mind you, my only reference point is the previous cross-cut original (maybe) Lucas Sail which was totally bagged out.
It is interesting that at least one other sailmaker I spoke to also dismissed dacron bi-radials, but Crusader are happy to do them and the result looks good (in the 16 hours it's been up so far). Likewise, they dismissed the tri-radials that someone else was promoting.
Like you, I got my head so full of conflicting opinions that I ended up going with the person that gave me most confidence, and was also (co-incidentally) quoting the best price.
I also got a new mainsail, and am likewise very happy with it.

 

[KellysEye]

To sort that mess out the more fibre the sail has compared to glue the stronger the sail will be and it will last longer. With a sample of cloth from each sailmaker put a magnifying glass in front of it and a bright light behind it the differences will be obvious. The choice then is decided by how much you sail, weekend and holiday sailing in light to moderate winds you should get away with a cheaper sail then work how much sailing do compared to that and the maximum strength of wind you would sail in then make final decision. You may find there are only two different cloths. The highest quality which we had for long distance sailing is http://www.hoodsailmakersuk.com/

 

[skyflyer]

Ask the chap recommending bi-rads why he suggests this cut for that specific cloth and also if his advice would apply to all cloths? I very much doubt that he'll answer 'yes' to the second question!

No he is definitely suggesting different fabric, but still a polyester weave, made "for the purpose," but the other guys argue that such fabric is still not very good - at best a compromise.

The advantages of bi-radial are well documented but summarising - better performance for no reduction in life.

 

[skyflyer]

To sort that mess out the more fibre the sail has compared to glue the stronger the sail will be and it will last longer. With a sample of cloth from each sailmaker put a magnifying glass in front of it and a bright light behind it the differences will be obvious. The choice then is decided by how much you sail, weekend and holiday sailing in light to moderate winds you should get away with a cheaper sail then work how much sailing do compared to that and the maximum strength of wind you would sail in then make final decision. You may find there are only two different cloths. The highest quality which we had for long distance sailing is http://www.hoodsailmakersuk.com/

Hello there; do you have this paragraph stored on your PC by any chance! Obviously I researched on the forum before I even approached sailmakers, concerning different cloths and different sailmakers and I think I must have seen the above paragraph about 6 times.

Unfortunately I have also seen a LOT of forum members discredit it and of being any practical use these days. Thanks anyway

 

[dom]

....You may find there are only two different cloths. The highest quality which we had for long distance sailing is http://www.hoodsailmakersuk.com/

Interesting; is Hood still around and is that the Irish cloth you mean?

 

[dom]

No he is definitely suggesting different fabric, but still a polyester weave, made "for the purpose," but the other guys argue that such fabric is still not very good - at best a compromise.

The advantages of bi-radial are well documented but summarising - better performance for no reduction in life.

Fair enough. The slight difference in opinion here might be due to this: a tri-rad sail will impart the load lines along the weave of an unfurled sail and with Dacron this probably makes sense. A bi-rad will do similar, just not quite so well.

You need to ask the sailmaker what happens to these load lines as you furl the sail? If they rapidly start to depart from the weave (which they tend to do) then that kind of defeats the purpose of a bo-rad as it is in these winds that the loads are greatest.

If you can however keep the furled load lines more or less parallel to the weave, then for 15% why not?