Swing-keel sportsboat?

[dancrane]

Here we go again...

Bustling along on my own under all sail in about ten knots of nor'-easter on Saturday, I suddenly realised there was another, much bigger dinghy 500 yards ahead of me, heeling hard then coming upright and easily going as fast as my Osprey.

I'm sure he didn't know he was being pursued, or I wouldn't have caught him...it turned out not to be a dinghy at all, but a Laser SB3.

I liked what I saw, so I had a look for pictures and specification at home later; and at other similar designs.

Only trouble (to my one-track mind) seems to be that the SB3's retractable keel isn't meant to be retracted until you come ashore and haul out, by which point its obstruction of the boom is less likely to spell catastrophe.

...which set me wondering which (if any) of these cheerfully-boisterous, conveniently self-righting twenty-something-foot sportsboats actually sports a swinging centreboard and lifting rudder?

I fear the answer is probably 'none', because the competitive purpose of these designs doesn't allow for mere practicality. Does anyone know otherwise?

 

[Pete54]

Topper Breeze, sails to about 935 - 940 and has 180kg of centreboard and racks. Great fun.

http://www.cvrda.org/dinghydata/Keel/Breeze.htm

 

[crewman]

Not really a sports boat, but the Hawk 20 has a centreboard, lifting rudder and is selfrighting.

 

[bbg]

Is the purpose of your post to genuinely inquire if there are any sports boats with swing up keels, or to criticise them for not suiting the kind of sailing you do?

 

[mrming]

The SeaScape 18 is a swing keel sportsboat:
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=6155

Very nice it is too.

 

[Birdseye]

When does a dinghy become a sports boat? What about the good old wayfarer? And wasnt there an earlier Lazer , a 16 if I remember correctly, which certainly was fun to sail.

 

[dancrane]

Thanks MrMing, that SeaScape18 is a nice design, I'm surprised not to have heard of it before.

I'm not sure if the Wayfarer makes the grade, Birdseye - on the one hand it isn't very fast, and on the other, if it ever does get rolled, it isn't self-righting.

I like the old International Tempest, but it certainly won't have been designed with easy launching and landing in mind, and I can't blame it or Ian Proctor for that.

The Hawk 20 is a nice combination, though I reckon a self-righting swing-keel dayboat could be a bit more performance-inclined...

...the Topper Breeze looks interesting, wonder why I haven't seen it before...there's not a lot written about it as far as I can see, despite a speedy PY rating and enough ballast in the keel to make it forgiving...

...this article about the Breeze, reads encouragingly, but is dated 2000, and I get the feeling they haven't made many since: http://www.boats.com/the-topper-breeze/

 

[flaming]

Breeze never made it as a class. Shame really, I sailed the Sunsail ones a bit before they canned the dinghy side of things and it was quite a nice boat, and with those racks lifting you up a bit dryer than the SB3.

In fact, if you can find one of the old, slightly beefier, Sunsail ones, could even be a decent bet for you Dan. Should be peanuts to pick up I'd have thought.

 

[lw395]

I read the thread title 'swing keel' to mean a bulb keel that swings laterally to bring the weight up to windward, not a centreboard.
Like an open 60? Mini transat thinghy?
There have been plenty of dinghies with steel centreboards I suppose.

What are we trying to achieve exactly?

 

[dancrane]

I read the thread title 'swing keel' to mean a bulb keel that swings laterally to bring the weight up to windward, not a centreboard. What are we trying to achieve exactly?

Wouldn't that be a canting keel? I hadn't realised 'swing keel' was open to misunderstanding.

I like sailing a big, reasonably fast dinghy and I've grown much more confident about stronger winds...but I don't want to have to rely on anyone else's presence to keep the boat upright, or to help right her in the event of a knock-down.

I had contemplated moulding a lead-cored centreboard for the Osprey, 18 months ago, but the roar of mirth here was fairly discouraging, and so far I've done alright without such a modification...

...but ultimately I'd like something bigger and faster, like the Topper Breeze, with a lifting keel, and with enough lead in it to make singlehanding possible, even if it's challenging.

...if you can find one of the old, slightly beefier, Sunsail ones, could be a decent bet...Should be peanuts to pick up I'd have thought.

Great idea, thanks Flaming.

 

[Pete54]

I'll own up to owning a Breeze. Originally a Sunsail boat it is in reasonable condition and is great fun. For best speed it needs to be kept fairly level due to the skiff shape but it is pretty forgiving if you don't. Mine has an enormous asymmetric to replace the modest Sunsail one and that makes it tremendously fast off the wind. It transitions from displacement to planning with no real change in anything but the singing from the rudder. Off the wind gusts, seem to translate to speed with little help from the crew!

I've had to modify the centreboard lift arrangements but generally it is a very flexible quick boat. They were always at the bottom of the 'sportsboat' league which is I guess why Sunsail used them. White Performance will supposedly build you one and can supply some parts.

What makes a sportsboat? There is some formula in the rules but essentially about 20ft plus, multicrew, self righting and performance orientated. On that basis the ballasted version of the Laser Stratos falls a little short - but is actually quite good fun. Reasonably quick and very forgiving.

There must be a fair number of Breeze about and none of them sell for big money.

 

[dancrane]

Thanks Pete, that's very informative. I want one...

I'm not so sure there are many out there though...it is rare to find reference to the design at all online, though I may be looking in the wrong places.

It slightly surprises me that there seem to be so few dinghies/ballasted centreboarders in the 18 - 20ft range, which are designed to be both fast and ultimately forgiving. A large dinghy with a weighted board (or even the option to use a weighted or unweighted board, according to available human ballast and wind strength) would offer better versatility than most big dinghies or small keelboats currently allow.

 

[PeteCooper]

I recently bought a Micro 18 because I wanted some of the same attributes as the OP. She is quite nippy - sails like a dinghy but not quite as quick, but will plane. Has a cast iron keel so capsizing is reduced(but not prevented completely). I can occasionally sleep aboard. It fits my requirements.

 

[michael_w]

Bit bigger at 8m but my old First Class 8 was a lot of fun to sail.

 

[Zarro]

Three of us have an SB20, renamed from SB3 three years ago when Laser Performance lost the franchise. I describe it as an overgrown, over canvassed dinghy with a heavy keel. The keel weighs 325kg and the max crew weight when racing is 270kg between 3 or 4 crew. The genneker is 46m2 and the white sails 27m2 so she can be a bit of a handful when blowing 25kts plus as we often get in Cascais.

Our max has been 18 kts but two people have told me they have clocked 22 kts! She is great fun to sail but unless very light wind would be too much to handle singlehanded, not having the ability to reef. Rolls to about 45º but will not capsize.

I am nearly 72 and getting too slow about the boat when it is windy, but what a lovely boat to sail. For your type of use Dan you would need to have smaller sails, but their design would make it almost impossible to just cut down, you would need to have smaller ones specially made and modify the jib sheeting.

We have a cradle for our boat which bolts on the road trailer so do not have to lift the keel or take off the rudder every time we launch, much better for the wear and tear on both items.

 

[lw395]

Thanks Pete, that's very informative. I want one...

I'm not so sure there are many out there though...it is rare to find reference to the design at all online, though I may be looking in the wrong places.

It slightly surprises me that there seem to be so few dinghies/ballasted centreboarders in the 18 - 20ft range, which are designed to be both fast and ultimately forgiving. A large dinghy with a weighted board (or even the option to use a weighted or unweighted board, according to available human ballast and wind strength) would offer better versatility than most big dinghies or small keelboats currently allow.

New boat sales are not driven by versatility, they are driven by racing and sailing schools/holiday companies.
People will pay good money for racing.
Sailing schools and holiday co's can wring a lot of value out of a boat.

The non-racing owner-sailor dingy market is small at the best of times, when you constrain it with the price of a new 18ft boat it gets very small indeed.
The SB20 has a lot going for it, but anything with a 325kg keel needs serious facilities to launch, or a mooring, then your are into antifoul and all the expenses of a small yacht.
If it's the 18 knots you want, it's more simply available with a catamaran.
If speed is not so important, there are loads of options in the small keelboat market.

Anyone who's spent time righting capsized dinghies will know that you need a pretty heavy centreboard to reliably self-right even a modest sized dinghy. In the region of doubling the sailing weight.
That's a real drain on performance and convenience, when plenty of people sail (cruise) ordinary dinghies and rarely capsize.

 

[dancrane]

Three of us have an SB20...an overgrown, over canvassed dinghy with a heavy keel...325kg...genneker is 46m2 and the white sails 27m2 so she can be a bit of a handful...great fun to sail but unless very light wind would be too much to handle singlehanded, not having the ability to reef...you would need to have smaller sails.

Just what I was thinking when I saw one at the weekend. :encouragement:

...anything with a 325kg keel needs serious facilities to launch, or a mooring, then you are into antifoul and all the expenses of a small yacht. If it's the 18 knots you want, it's more simply available with a catamaran...

...you need a heavy centreboard to self-right even a modest sized dinghy. That's a real drain on performance and convenience, when plenty of people sail (cruise) ordinary dinghies and rarely capsize.

That's the voice of reason, thanks. Actually my club is full of big, high-tech catamarans, but somehow I don't want one.

I bought a big dinghy because they're mostly much cheaper than mini-cruisers; I only discovered the fun of her performance by chance...

...but ultimately I still want a yacht...except, I've stopped envying owners of very little yachts because they mostly sail so slowly.

Expect I could live with it though, if she had a centreboard.

 

[PeteCooper]

Dan, the Swift 18 you have pictured is technically a Micro 18(it fits the rules) but is generally considered to be a very slow Micro. I f you want something of that size then these figures are based on a Gem:

First, Swift > +4.5 min/hr
Challenger, Ricochet +3.5 min/hr
Sailart 18 from Germany, very safe and comfortable, www.sailart.de, +2.5 min/hr
Gem 0
Microsail +0.5 min/hr
Jumper Prima or Super / and Flyer Cruiser - 0.5 min/hr
Neptune, - 0.5 min/hr, but this boat has less stability than the Gem or Microsail
Flyer Classic, -1 min/hr
Jumper Racer -1.5 min/hr
Flyer Classic with Racer rig -2 min/hr...

I have copied those figures from a Micro 18 group.
If you fancy a high quality, very fast wooden Micro I know of one in the Lake District that is for sale. I considered buying her but I wanted GRP not wood.
There are also Micro 18 prototypes which are sometimes faster.

 

[dancrane]

Thanks Pete for those comparative figures. I always admired the Swift 18, but its fairly racy 1980s styling seems to belie a rather relaxed approach to actual performance. Plus the fan-base for the Swift seems to keep prices very high...

...whereas a glance at Micro 18s generally, seems much more encouraging. The style and the accommodation certainly seem to make more sense than the oversize ballasted dinghy I was visualising.

Do these tiny performance-orientated designs plane to any degree, or are they held back by displacement and waterline length?

I know it's unreasonable to compare the bare-minimal weight of a dinghy like mine, with the relative robustness, structural complexity, substantial beam and ballast of a similarly-lengthed cruiser, but I can't imagine a hull weighing five times what the Osprey does (and without that much additional sail area) climbing onto her own bow wave.

Food for thought, anyway. Thanks. :encouragement:

 

[mrming]

...but ultimately I still want a yacht...except, I've stopped envying owners of very little yachts because they mostly sail so slowly.

Our small yacht does 5+ knots upwind, draws just over two feet with the swing keel up and the sail plan is flexible enough for single handing or racing with three on the rail. She's too heavy to plane but will surf with the kite up and some nice waves.

Granted you have the cost of a mooring to consider but on the plus side she's ready to go whenever you fancy a sail.

http://www.beneteau235.com