Swedish veteran flotilla 2015

[Teawby]

I just want to share a video with you guys.

A short film from this year with a small insight what is going on in Sweden. Merry christmas!

 

[IDAMAY]

Great video. What a buzz that must have been. Hate to think how much fuel they used though!

 

[sarabande]

rather sad to think that the UK Coastal Forces craft are not similarly looked after. Well done Sweden !

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

Fantastic! ..... I think a few British boats are preserved and running. Someone on here will know.

 

[andy59]

Great video, thanks for posting , must have been fun running 3 abreast at those speeds . The skippers must know each other very well .

 

[wongaero]

Thanks Teawby, your video posts are always a treat, though I do feel I should be using bigger loudspeakers...

 

[spannerman]

Fantastic video clips, reminds me of driving in the poker runs we have over here, very exciting running at those speeds with boats on all sides.

 

[Teawby]

Im glad you enjoy them!

 

[Anders_P42]

T26 cut through other boats wake like it wasn't there.

 

[MapisM]

THAT. IS. AMAZING.
Thanks for posting it, impressive stuff indeed.

Incidentally, I only just recently understood that CRM is still producing those W18 beasts. Was anyone aware of that?
Maybe not exactly the same as the 50s vintage I would think, but I'd be surprised if the basic architecture changed a lot.
And interestingly, you can actually buy them and fit it in a modern boat, if you fancy - in fact, a few modern AB yachts vessels were built with them, as I was told.

So, your video made me curious, and I just googled the specs of the current CRM W18 (avaliable here, just in case anyone's interested to repower his trailer boat... ).
And I was a bit shocked!
I mean, look at this (admittedly uber rough) comparison between the CRM W18 and the Caterpillar 3512:

• same displacement (58 liters)
• same heavy duty rating max power (1800hp, though there's also a 2400hp version of the CRM)
• weight: 2100 vs. 7500 kg (WTF?!?!?!)

Now, I'm aware that Cat is not a builder known for extreme power to weight ratios, but LESS THAN ONE THIRD (!) would make one think that the CRM must be made out of balsa wood...
...Otoh, there we have it, this T56 thing built in the 50s and still capable of the sort of performance shown in the video.

What the heck am I missing here?

 

[burgundyben]

rather sad to think that the UK Coastal Forces craft are not similarly looked after.

Really? HSL102, MGB81, MTB102, Medusa, the Fairmile heading to Portsmouth, a CMB stepped hull in a Museum and one afloat, a 37ft RAF tender restored, I think we're doing well.

 

[burgundyben]

THAT. IS. AMAZING.
Thanks for posting it, impressive stuff indeed.

Incidentally, I only just recently understood that CRM is still producing those W18 beasts. Was anyone aware of that?
Maybe not exactly the same as the 50s vintage I would think, but I'd be surprised if the basic architecture changed a lot.
And interestingly, you can actually buy them and fit it in a modern boat, if you fancy - in fact, a few modern AB yachts vessels were built with them, as I was told.

So, your video made me curious, and I just googled the specs of the current CRM W18 (avaliable here, just in case anyone's interested to repower his trailer boat... ).
And I was a bit shocked!
I mean, look at this (admittedly uber rough) comparison between the CRM W18 and the Caterpillar 3512:

• same displacement (58 liters)
• same heavy duty rating max power (1800hp, though there's also a 2400hp version of the CRM)
• weight: 2100 vs. 7500 kg (WTF?!?!?!)

Now, I'm aware that Cat is not a builder known for extreme power to weight ratios, but LESS THAN ONE THIRD (!) would make one think that the CRM must be made out of balsa wood...
...Otoh, there we have it, this T56 thing built in the 50s and still capable of the sort of performance shown in the video.

What the heck am I missing here?

I think the CRM started life as the petrol Isotta Fraschini and was used in WW2. As you say, WTF!

 

[Teawby]

I think the CRM started life as the petrol Isotta Fraschini and was used in WW2. As you say, WTF!

Thats right, and the amount of torque they deliver is insane.

T56 has 3 crm 18d/ss giving it a top speed of 50kts and 18 knots minium on all three.

 

[burgundyben]

Thats right, and the amount of torque they deliver is insane.

T56 has 3 crm 18d/ss giving it a top speed of 50kts and 18 knots minium on all three.

Proper boat.

 

[Latestarter1]

What the heck am I missing here?

Mapis I really need to turn you into a spec sheet anorak.

Even though CRM marketing stuff is full of holes one or two facts make you realise that engine ticks no boxes at all.

#1. Indirect injection, obviously they only way that they cam get any form of emissions control.
Using IDI is dinosaur technology, temperature/pressure gradients within this engine make it a low life to overhaul motor. In addition the fuel consumption being IDI will have to stink. Forget the quoted numbers they are meaningless.
Typical CAT 3500 life to overhaul based on fuel usage and rating is 20/25,000 hours.

#2 Certification is hopeless IMO - 94/25/EC, IMO, assume 1999 and RCD struggling to think of a legal application, certainly not a new one.

Love to know how these Italian manufacturers stay in business.....

 

[Teawby]

Mapis I really need to turn you into a spec sheet anorak.

Even though CRM marketing stuff is full of holes one or two facts make you realise that engine ticks no boxes at all.

#1. Indirect injection, obviously they only way that they cam get any form of emissions control.
Using IDI is dinosaur technology, temperature/pressure gradients within this engine make it a low life to overhaul motor. In addition the fuel consumption being IDI will have to stink. Forget the quoted numbers they are meaningless.
Typical CAT 3500 life to overhaul based on fuel usage and rating is 20/25,000 hours.

#2 Certification is hopeless IMO - 94/25/EC, IMO, assume 1999 and RCD struggling to think of a legal application, certainly not a new one.

Love to know how these Italian manufacturers stay in business.....

It´s a very tough business and yes they do struggle to survive and we hope they will in the future. I know the Italian coast guard uses their machines but power/weight today sadly isn't as important as it was back at the time

 

[MapisM]

Mapis I really need to turn you into a spec sheet anorak.

LOL, not arguing with that. I actually saw that coming, sort of...
Yep, all understood and agreed - btw, the comparable power is also produced at a radically different rpm range between the CRM and the Cat (2100 vs. 1600), and I guess that's another factor potentially affecting durability.

Nonetheless, the weight difference remains nothing short of astonishing - wouldn't you expect to see such power to weight difference between a NA and a TA engine, if that?
And even if I don't doubt for a minute that life to overhaul is much longer in the Cat, seeing the CRM still doing its job on this military vessel after more than half a century would make one think that it isn't just a disposable engine, after all...

Purely out of curiosity, LS: what's your take on these articulating rods of the W18?

 

[Latestarter1]

LOL, not arguing with that. I actually saw that coming, sort of...
Yep, all understood and agreed - btw, the comparable power is also produced at a radically different rpm range between the CRM and the Cat (2100 vs. 1600), and I guess that's another factor potentially affecting durability.

Nonetheless, the weight difference remains nothing short of astonishing - wouldn't you expect to see such power to weight difference between a NA and a TA engine, if that?
And even if I don't doubt for a minute that life to overhaul is much longer in the Cat, seeing the CRM still doing its job on this military vessel after more than half a century would make one think that it isn't just a disposable engine, after all...

Purely out of curiosity, LS: what's your take on these articulating rods of the W18?

Typical of a 'boutique' engine, allows for nice short therefore rigid journal at the expense of critical bearing area.

IF the Italian C.G submitted to competitive tendering under E.U rules these engines would cease to exist, let alone meeting emissions legislation. How do they get away with it??

 

[MapisM]

How do they get away with it??

Good question. One to which I would normally answer "no idea".

Otoh, it's a cold winter night, the TV sucks as always, and I like the challenge of trying to reply one question on diesel engines from yourself rather than the other way round, for a change...!
So, I tried to put together some bits and pieces, based on what I was already aware of (not much, admittedly) about IT CG vessels and what I could find (still a little, anyway) on the net.
But goes without saying that the following summary is far from pretending to cover the subject as accurately and thoroughly as you normally do - just take it fwiw!

To start with, yes, this CRM W18 engine is indeed derived by a very old IF petrol engine (same architecture and bore + stroke, hence 57+ litres displacement).
This IF engine was born as an aeronautical engine though, back in the late 20s (yes, not a typo!).
Capable of 1000hp @ 1600rpm and weighing a bit less than 800Kg (!), was allegedly the world most powerful aeronautical engine in its days, as well as the Caproni biplane where 6 of them were installed was the larger airplane.

But as far as I understood, that's where the similarities end.
In fact, CRM marinised and dieselised (if that's correct, you see what I mean anyway) it many years later, in the 50s.
Anyway, their W18 was also installed on somewhat modern pleasure boats, as Magnum (no less!) and AB yachts (Mangusta-style boats, for those who don't know them).
For diesel sound lovers, here's a video with three of these beasts spinning at WOT behind waterjets, allegedly pushing an AB 88 to 65 knots:

But no W18 is installed on any CG vessels, to my knowledge.
Actually, there is a very popular series of "Guardia di Finanza" 20m patrol boats (and the difference with Coast Guard is irrelevant, in this contest) powered by a couple of CRM W18.
Designed by Baglietto, overall more than 70 of them were built through the years, of which about one third sold abroad.
But we're talking of the 70s, and... guess what... mahogany hulls! Though some are still in service (again - talk about engine durability...!), and reportedly they are great sea boats.

Back to IF, it still exists, and has nothing to see with CRM, afaik. I'd be curious to hear from Teawby about that, anyway: if he's in contact with CRM, maybe he knows better.
In fact, IF belongs to Fincantieri (the largest IT shipbuilder), and they do produce a range of marine engines, specifically targeted at the defense industry, though some have also been used for offshore racing boats.
But they are completely different animals, and much more modern, based on their specs: common rail, direct injection, 4 valves/cyl, sequential supercharging, EPA Tier II.
They are available in a rather wide range of size/power, the smaller being an 11 litres capable of 800hp, up to a 67L capable of 3500hp.
But none of them have exotic "W" architectures: the smaller is a 6L, the larger a V16, and in between there are V8 and V12 (all based on modular design).

Many CG boats are indeed powered by IF engines, in various flavours, depending on their size. But there are also CG boats powered by MTU, MAN and Seatek.
Incidentally, one of those IF powered is sometimes in my yard for maintenance, and I posted a couple of pics in this thread at the beginning of ths year.
As an example, the three IF engines powering this one are 20 litres/1000hp V12.
And for the records, IT CG aside, IF engines are also installed in several defense boats/ships also outside Italy - one example being the US Navy Freedom Class, where they are used as generators.

Bottom line, the answer to the initial question about how do they get away with the rules seems to be that they actually comply with them...

 

[Teawby]

Back to IF, it still exists, and has nothing to see with CRM, afaik. I'd be curious to hear from Teawby about that, anyway: if he's in contact with CRM, maybe he knows better.
QUOTE]

That's right. I do not remember everything at 100% but I have personally visited CRM factory when we were down there and got our engines assembled and tested . All I remember is that Isotta was going "down" and the ppl on the "floor" created CRM themselves developing the concept further togerther with the Swedish navy as Isotta went the other way to the more non extreme concept as we se today for example cat, mtu etc.