Swaging question

[jfkal]

Replacing my standing rigging. The original (Jeanneau) was nicely and smoothly swaged. However the shop who is supposed to make the new ones showed me samples which have two distinct ridges (burrs ? forgive my bad English). after swaging. Is this a sign of bad quality which will give me trouble later or just a different machine (I understand there are two types of machines for swaging). Am I save or shall I better hunt for another workshop??

 

[qsiv]

I doubt it's an issue.

It sounds like the one with ridhes is probably a straightforward compression swage (perhaps Nicopress), where as your nice smooth ones are quite possibly rolled (or they might be Norseman style).

In any event they should both be functional ...

 

[jfkal]

Thanks. Yeo that seems to be the terms PRESSED or ROLLED. Thanks for the advice.

 

[jfkal]

Thanks. Yeo that seems to be the terms PRESSED or ROLLED. Thanks for the advice.

 

[vyv_cox]

I don't quite understand what you are being offered, and for what. Most modern standing rigging will have a T-ball at the mast end and a bottle-screw at the chain plates, something like those shown at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.s3i.co.uk/htm/swage.htm>http://www.s3i.co.uk/htm/swage.htm</A> The wire is inserted into the hole in the end of the fitting, which is then rolled at considerable load with a pair of hollow rollers that compress the fitting onto the cable. The result is a smooth fitting and a very solid fastening. If the rollers are not the correct size, or worn, or the operator is not very skilled, then there can be longitudinal ridges or a bent fitting. These should not be accepted.

If, on the other hand, the ridges are around the fitting, then it sounds as though a Nicopress type is being used. These can be strong and reliable, they are used for aircraft controls, but a great deal of skill is needed to make them up correctly. They are often used for dinghy and small boat rigging but not often for bigger boats. Don't even think about them unless they have been made up with a hydraulic tool. If your rigger is very good and has lots of experience with this type you could use them but I would be inclined to stick with swaged type.

 

[VMALLOWS]

Vyv,

On my 1984 Sadler 29, all the swaged fitting have significant longitudinal ridges (4 per swage) and also are somewhat banana shaped. Not ideal but have lasted since then (probably didn't know enough at the time to reject them outright).

Given the age, it's obviously about time to replace the rigging. Question is whether to replace with swaged (paying someone to do the swages) or go with Norseman/Stalock (rather more expensive to buy) and doing it myself. (also hopefully sourcing the wire at a more competative cost than marine suppliers.!). My forestay is Stalock, so familiar with the process (and it hasn't fallen down!).

Any comments.? Vic. 'Sundash'

 

[jfkal]

The ridges run the whole length of the fitting (which was smooth originally ) and there are two of them and very distinct (at least 0.5 mm).
I simply asked them to swage for me trunbuckles and forks for 4mm wire first and that is how they came back. So my worry is of course to screw up the Stemball fitting for the shrouds on the 8mm wires

 

[vyv_cox]

When I bought my 34 it had one lower shroud that had been replaced fairly recently. This was very banana shaped and had deep ridges. Although it might have been perfectly OK I didn't feel happy with it, so replaced it with a straight, smooth one.

Norseman are clearly OK but not sure that the economics make a great deal of sense. If I had a big cutter rigged ketch and was setting off for 20 years at sea I might be interested. With a masthead sloop intended mainly for coastal sailing I doubt if I shall bother. I do have Norseman rigged guardwires, though. If you go for swaged, I think it best to find someone who knows what they are doing and stand by them while they do it. I found the Selden agent in North Wales to be very good (Guy Brooks)

 

[charles_reed]

Vyv,

Depends on the method of swaging used and the fitting - if it's a hydraulic press type you'll get a smooth socket around the wire. This is an expensive piece of non-transportable kit and only likely to be found at major mast manufacturers.
All riggers use the alternative, which leaves a pair of ridges down the outside of the fitting.
I'd hate one to be misled into thinking ridges = poor swage.

With regard to the "straightness" of the T-stud and turnbuckle (ridoir) this is a very critical point - these MUST be straight and true, without any out-of-line - poor, out-of-line swaging is probably the most common cause of rig failure.

 

[vyv_cox]

It's a matter of degree, I think. When the wheels get quite worn they leave bigger ridges. Where there is a ridge it is an indication that the metal of the socket has not been fully extruded into the wire. They may be OK with only part of the metal extruded, or maybe not?

My shrouds have a mixture of hydraulic and wheel rolled fittings, the former made up in the workshop and the latter at the boat. None has any ridges at all. That's what you pay for when you go to the best riggers.

 

[30boat]

I would definitely go for the norseman/staloc terminals even if they are more expensive.This way you can be totaly sure the job has been done correctly.
that's what I always do anyway.

 

[jfkal]

Stalok does not do stemball fittings however ACMO from France does.

 

[jfkal]

They don't to Stemball's. All my other stuff will be Stalok.

 

[jfkal]

They claim their machine is hydraulic roller type. But still there are those ridges....

 

[Strathglass]

That info on ACMO is very usefull, their site is very good.
Not yet discovered how to find pricing info.

I will soon be purchasing complete standing rigging for a twin spreader masthead rig with backstay insulators for a 33ft yacht. They seem to be able to supply all the bits, with all the fittings swageless.

I will be making further enquiries.

This is one of the important benifits of forums.

Iain

 

[jfkal]

Ian,

no prices on the website. You need to fax to them for a quote. Address it to Sylvie.

Brgds

Joerg

 

[Guest]

Common failure reason ...

A common reason for failure is an inexperienced rigger or one who thinks he can press twice !
Particularly Talurit fittings .... OK a fitting that is not an item here ...... but giving it another press for the road basically undoes all the good the first press did !

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !