suveyer says i need copper pipe to my eberspasher
- Thread starter sjclewes
- Start date
lw395
Well-Known Member
Cliveshep talks sense!
I have to agree with the man, it's not too hard to do a proper job in copper. The standard eber stuff is not great.
I would also suggest a proper shut off tap at the fuel tank and an inline fuel filter.
If the eber is flexibly mounted (which helps with the noise), then there really ought to be a flexible section in the piping, a short length of Aeroquip or similar made removing my heater a lot easier.
If you're ever going to let the eber run unattended, it's nice to know the installation is beyond reproach.
I have to agree with the man, it's not too hard to do a proper job in copper. The standard eber stuff is not great.
I would also suggest a proper shut off tap at the fuel tank and an inline fuel filter.
If the eber is flexibly mounted (which helps with the noise), then there really ought to be a flexible section in the piping, a short length of Aeroquip or similar made removing my heater a lot easier.
If you're ever going to let the eber run unattended, it's nice to know the installation is beyond reproach.
PCUK
Well-Known Member
As already said many times the BSS is more about making money than safety. Look at the spill rail fiasco. If the boat isn't on BW waters then it doesn't need BW requirements. Many so called surveyors are little more than BW examiners and are obsessed with the BSS. I had one recently who apart from all the BSS he quoted also got a great of other straightforward stuff badly wrong which I was easily able to rebuff.
The correct sized copper tube is readily available for EBER but it wasn't when I installed mine so I ran it inside copper tube. I bored out the fitting on the tank so that the plastic could run through into the tank but still use the compression joint. I ran this up above tank level and out of the engine compartment and then let the plastic act as the shock absorber for the last couple of inches to the heater. This has been accepted by all subsequent surveyors.
The correct sized copper tube is readily available for EBER but it wasn't when I installed mine so I ran it inside copper tube. I bored out the fitting on the tank so that the plastic could run through into the tank but still use the compression joint. I ran this up above tank level and out of the engine compartment and then let the plastic act as the shock absorber for the last couple of inches to the heater. This has been accepted by all subsequent surveyors.
willpatten
Well-Known Member
I was always under the impression that manufacturers instructions over rule British Standards. I am sure this is certainly the case for Gas installations. If the Eber instructions state that you should use the tube supplied, then i would have thought that is what you should do.
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
If the recommendations from Eber are to run it in copper it would be a brave surveyor to go against this advice.
Presumably there is no requirement to carry out surveyors recommendations (unless coded etc. or inland waterways etc.) - its just that if there was an insurance issue, and failing to carry out an item which was shown to have caused or made the situation more serious, you may not be insured.
Presumably there is no requirement to carry out surveyors recommendations (unless coded etc. or inland waterways etc.) - its just that if there was an insurance issue, and failing to carry out an item which was shown to have caused or made the situation more serious, you may not be insured.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I'm a little puzzled. What's he going to do if you don't change it?
NormanS
Well-Known Member
I'm amused by the idea of running the plastic pipe inside copper. When I had to comply with the BSS, they insisted that my copper gas tube be run inside plastic. 
Cliveshep
Well-Known Member
Well, presumably he'll write it up in the report and when the OP gives that to his insurers..........................!!
ccscott49
Well-Known Member
I'm amused by the idea of running the plastic pipe inside copper. When I had to comply with the BSS, they insisted that my copper gas tube be run inside plastic.
I have seen and fitted copper pipe, which has a "plastic/PVC" sleeve already on it from the manufacturers, excellent for on board gas pipes.
steve6367
Well-Known Member
I changed mine from copper to introduce some plastic flexible each side of the fuel pump - this resuced the transmitted noise through the rest of the copper pipe. Tic Tic Tic etc...
PCUK
Well-Known Member
Well Norman, that does show what a joke the BSS is. I ran my plastic in copper for my own piece of mind as all the other tank connections are copper, running up above tank level and that was long before this argument started! By the way the plastic covered copper is available from plumbers merchants.
cimo
Well-Known Member
![/QUOTE]
Why NOT comply with BSS, if inland boats have to on calm waters why should not offshore boats in far more ardous conditions? You all witter on constantly about epirbs and life rafts and crotch straps and harnesses on life jackets, all as major important safety issues yet you complain about safety issues for the boat. Amazing![/QUOTE]
Hello Cliveshep
if I may - the OPs surveyor is making an expensive recommendation to alter an existing installation in order to comply with a standard the OP didn't want be be assessed for in the first instance.
Of course safety is important - and here's whats really important - the surveyor is incorrect - you can have flexible fuel line & still meet the quoted standard.
cimo
Why NOT comply with BSS, if inland boats have to on calm waters why should not offshore boats in far more ardous conditions? You all witter on constantly about epirbs and life rafts and crotch straps and harnesses on life jackets, all as major important safety issues yet you complain about safety issues for the boat. Amazing![/QUOTE]
Hello Cliveshep
if I may - the OPs surveyor is making an expensive recommendation to alter an existing installation in order to comply with a standard the OP didn't want be be assessed for in the first instance.
Of course safety is important - and here's whats really important - the surveyor is incorrect - you can have flexible fuel line & still meet the quoted standard.
cimo
Grumpybear
Well-Known Member
the surveyor is nhired to advise, not instruct....
boggybrn
Well-Known Member
This thread reminds me of an incident when I did the RYA competent crew course. Having returned from the pub back to the boat we fired up the Eberspracher to thaw out. Afer a few moments the entire boat was full of white smoke! We shut off the heater and the instructor started digging about in the lockers.
He couldn't find the cause, so I had a look, and found a tiny hole in the fuel feed pipe, where it had touched the exhaust and melted. The rest of the week was a bit cold!
So I'd go with copper pipes.
He couldn't find the cause, so I had a look, and found a tiny hole in the fuel feed pipe, where it had touched the exhaust and melted. The rest of the week was a bit cold!
So I'd go with copper pipes.
Crabman
Well-Known Member
Correct.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
fire resistant rubberised pipes is the wat to go.
i had all this tosh once from a survey.changed to copper, the copper corroded where it passed through the hull stiffeners even with a large clearance hole
Bodach na mara
Well-Known Member
there are a few statements in the replies above that need comment. One refers to the emptying of the fuel tank if the pipe cracks. If it is installed according to the instructions I saw, it comes from the top of the tank via a dip tube and the feed pipe is empty unless the heater is running. The heater sucks fule from the tank; there is no gravity feed. Of course any individual installation may differ. I wanted the installer to take a feed from the supply from the bottom of the tank to the engige but he declined, chosing instead to bore e new hole in the tank top. a very difficult operation given where the tank is.
Running gas pipe through bulkheads is also mentioned. I chose to follow the advice in BSS to avoid joints in the pipework as far as possible and used only one bulkhead connector, at the exit from the gas locker. The rest of the run is in a single piece right to the stopcock near the cooker. Where the copper goes through bulkheads, it is protected from chafe by having a piese of neoprene tube fed over it and the hole in the bulkhead being slightly oversized.
I agree that renewing the pipe in copper may cause leaks that are not there just now. Although the pipe in my boat is entirely within the engine compartment, I will be leaving well alone. My experience in trying to make leak-free joints in copper pipe is probably behind this. I saw in another forum (DIYNOT I think) a suggestion that compression jopints are prone to weeping in central heating systems and that is certainly my experience with my owm (British Gas installed) system. Most of the joints show signs of seepage. I renewed my engine supply pipe in copper and have had small weeps at some of the joints ever since. I was tempted to renew the plastic return pipe which rune across the top of the engine, but was advised against it as there must be flexibility in this pipe. The installation dates from 1975 so goodness knows what grade op tubing is used. The boat has been surveyed twice and neither surveyor has commented.
Finally, the suggestion of running the plastic pipe in a copper conduit. This may provide a measure of mechanicla protection but at the expense of concealing any fault. The ends (or at least one of them) will not be sealed to the pipe, so any leakage can still escape, and if there is a fire, the plastic can still melt, although I agree that the escape of fuel in such a situation will be reduced.
My own conclusions are that the pipe should be left alone. If it is not broke, do not try to fix it. If it runs through the engine compartment, consider renewal in the future, but doing it properly is not just a "take off and replace" job. The furnace unit may need to be removed to get access to alter the connector and there may still be a need to provide for a degree if flexibility in the tube at the furnace end.
Running gas pipe through bulkheads is also mentioned. I chose to follow the advice in BSS to avoid joints in the pipework as far as possible and used only one bulkhead connector, at the exit from the gas locker. The rest of the run is in a single piece right to the stopcock near the cooker. Where the copper goes through bulkheads, it is protected from chafe by having a piese of neoprene tube fed over it and the hole in the bulkhead being slightly oversized.
I agree that renewing the pipe in copper may cause leaks that are not there just now. Although the pipe in my boat is entirely within the engine compartment, I will be leaving well alone. My experience in trying to make leak-free joints in copper pipe is probably behind this. I saw in another forum (DIYNOT I think) a suggestion that compression jopints are prone to weeping in central heating systems and that is certainly my experience with my owm (British Gas installed) system. Most of the joints show signs of seepage. I renewed my engine supply pipe in copper and have had small weeps at some of the joints ever since. I was tempted to renew the plastic return pipe which rune across the top of the engine, but was advised against it as there must be flexibility in this pipe. The installation dates from 1975 so goodness knows what grade op tubing is used. The boat has been surveyed twice and neither surveyor has commented.
Finally, the suggestion of running the plastic pipe in a copper conduit. This may provide a measure of mechanicla protection but at the expense of concealing any fault. The ends (or at least one of them) will not be sealed to the pipe, so any leakage can still escape, and if there is a fire, the plastic can still melt, although I agree that the escape of fuel in such a situation will be reduced.
My own conclusions are that the pipe should be left alone. If it is not broke, do not try to fix it. If it runs through the engine compartment, consider renewal in the future, but doing it properly is not just a "take off and replace" job. The furnace unit may need to be removed to get access to alter the connector and there may still be a need to provide for a degree if flexibility in the tube at the furnace end.
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Zephyr362
Well-Known Member
"I was always under the impression that manufacturers instructions over rule British Standards. I am sure this is certainly the case for Gas installations. If the Eber instructions state that you should use the tube supplied, then i would have thought that is what you should do. "
If you don't follow the manufacturers instructions then it may not comply with the quoted standards, one thing for sure is the CE mark will be invalidated and the responsibility for mantaining against relevant standards no longer rest with Eber.
Another issue with copper pipes is that they can suffer from internal corrosion, especially with high sulphur diesel. From speaking to Echa Microbiology our friend the diesel bug likes copper and hence copper piping should be avoided where possible.
If you don't follow the manufacturers instructions then it may not comply with the quoted standards, one thing for sure is the CE mark will be invalidated and the responsibility for mantaining against relevant standards no longer rest with Eber.
Another issue with copper pipes is that they can suffer from internal corrosion, especially with high sulphur diesel. From speaking to Echa Microbiology our friend the diesel bug likes copper and hence copper piping should be avoided where possible.
Heckler
Well-Known Member
Tell him hes a plonker, the eber pipe is a very special one with tiny ID, the pump cant cope with a larger ID!!
IMHO if he doesnt know that then what is he doing pontificating on it? BT ( a megga H&S proponent) get around it by putting the pipes inside diesel fuel pipes (suspect neoprene coated with a fabric, I have plenty if you want some)
Stu
rob2
Well-Known Member
I recall other arguments of this type concerning gas installations and bulkhead fittings. The best answer in my opinion was a DIY installation where bulkhead fittings were drilled through to allow a continuous pipe to be supported by them and the olives were replaced by rubber o-rings to centre and cushion the pipe. Of course, with the pipe now semi-rigidly secured at the bulkhead, a loop was required to allow flexing. That works with gas, but I wouldn't recommend it if a nylon fuel pipe is fed up through it, as such a loop is notoriously difficult to bleed for a reliable feed. Mind you, if the copper pipe is being used as mechanical protection of the nylon pipe inside, then I wouldn't worry too much about the slight risk of fracture due to the bulkhead mounting.
Rob.
Rob.
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