Surveyor & Associate

[jonjo]

Just a word of warning when requesting a pre purchase survey.

I arranged a survey last week with XXX. I spoke with Mr XXX and we agreed to meet at the end of the survey on the yacht to discuss his findings. He also said having a prospective owner around during the survey would slow him down.

After discovering a major set-back with the yacht's paperwork the evening before I turned up at the yacht 4 hours early to cancel the survey and pay the appearance fee. There was a youngish chap aboard who I mistook to be a yard hand doing some engine servicing.

It transpired that I had encountered the junior associate who was just completing the first 2 hours of the survey. So I played along and asked how it was going, “nothing major” he said and then he showed me a leaking mast deck plug. “So how bad was the thump on the side” said I, which immediately triggered an anxious expression on the face of the junior. I then showed him a loose locker unit, a glue line now 5mm out of place and the hull lining pulled down by a previous surveyor, something that I had picked up on during my 2 hours aboard the previous day.

Mr XXX appeared at this point and there then followed 20 minutes of head scratching, with the conclusion that the GRP hull was a bit flexible at this point. The locker must have popped out during a windy night alongside a pontoon.

To be fair, maybe Mr XXX had just turned up to do his own 2 hour supplementary survey prior to meeting me. Anyhow there is a lesson here.

The current Mr XXX YM advert makes no mention of the associate!

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[Guest]

Can I ask a question ?

Was he YDSA ? Now that question is that YBDSA / YDSA / YSA - whichever they choose appropriate to the mark is NOT a guarantee of anything other than high fees.

Sorry to use your post to highlight this - but it annoys me that I see them advertise and be put forward by YBW at times - despite the number of GOOD honest surveyors available who will NOT join YBDSA / YDSA / YSA .....


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[jonjo]

Re: Can I ask a question ?

> Was he YDSA ?

No, he was a MRINA and sometimes recommended here.

He seemed ok in person but I just felt as though I had been fooled around with. Maybe many surveyors operate this way?



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[Guest]

No guarantees ... but

I haven't heard of this 'system' before .... If the guy was on board BEFORE agreed time / conducting in name for another - as far as I am concerned - you can refute the bill.

Second - I don't like the section about the hull etc. OK as a Surveyor - we are NOT the experts that some like to advertise - despite writing books etc. - we are subject to error etc. I have on occasion missed an item - later comment has caused me to return and check a particular point ------ your point of making sure all DETAILS are agreed with the surveyor BEFORE attendance is absolutely essential ....

I have iterated this SO MANY times on the fora - but of course not every postee reads ....


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

My advice to anyone ....

TALK fully, in detail WHAT, WHERE and how ..... incl. what the survey is actually for ... pre-purchase, insurance, valuation etc.

They make a difference to the fees and actual survey - beware of those who say - Oh that is all the same anyway ... and then stiff you with a bill that is out of proportion to the job. OK they might give your pages after page etc. - but is that what you need ?

YOU as Client dictate what is the job .... not the surveyor.
(To be honest I would class most as observers - not surveyors !!)

AND I consider most important is to discuss with the client FIRST before putting ink on paper .... hopefully that is ON the boat when inspecting - as owners have insight into their boats that is difficult to find as a stranger visiting ......

Sorry but I am sure I will get flack - but I am absolute on this ------ the average yacht surveyor is just THAT .... especially when it gets to YBDSA etc.

I own and run a Surveying Co. part of a worldwide network .... we do not get to such a position by creating a self-run / self interest Association supposedly looking after Yacht interests .... we stay well away from that sort of tactic.

I am really p'd off by so called Surveyors who wouldn't have a chance in the wider world ........



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[TonyD]

Re: My advice to anyone ....

So, Nigel, if we cannot rely upon membership of a "professional" organisation, or adverts in a reputable magazine, how do we select a surveyor?


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[Guest]

Talking to them at length

Most of us have a 'feel' when talking to a - now I have trouble to find a word here ..... I cannot say 'Company' - so how do you classify a surveyor ? I am a Company so I have to be careful .... please I am not touting here..

I'm sorry that it comes down to 'feel' when talking to the surveyor before committing .....

Take this example ...... 1100 for a USA produced Garden Tractor - excellent deal - then 1200 for a Husqvarna tractor via a small dealer ...... BUT - the small dealer on phone guaranteed the machine via HIS shop and stated clearly HE would be responsible for all repairs etc. in period ... unlike the 1100 quote ..... who quoted against SUPPLIER.
Ok the point is to highlight the pitfalls .....

MRINA - Member of Royal Institute Naval Architects ....... does that mean he understands all things ? Did he advise you that he would use an associate ??

BUT I would have greater respect for MRINA than YBDSA .... as they ARE a professional body - not self appointed. And I am sorry that a member has proven to be less than expected.

I have NO affiliation or connection with MRINA or YBDSA.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Mudplugger]

Re: Talking to them at length

Nigel, your comments re the various communities of surveyors bear thinking about, a good surveyor is not an easy individual to find, but there are a lot out there that claim to be pretty wonderful and charge accordingly!. Here on the East coast we have approximately 10 within spitting distance, from a variety of backgrounds, of those, of those, I would use a gentleman from Woodbridge, who doesn't act as a yachtbroker, a gentleman from Burnham, who has been around since God was a boy!, and a local gentleman, but only if I was purchasing a wooden vessel...not for GRP/Steel. The remainder, I would not allow on a vessel of mine, whether it cost me a sale or not. Against that, I have used the same gentleman from Woodbridge over the last 20 years on 4 occasions, have been treated with respect, given accurate information, charged a sensible amount , and received a tremendous amount of valuable advice,m without the customary bulls--t

<hr width=100% size=1>Tony W.

 

[jonjo]

Re: Talking to them at length

> Did he advise you that he would use an associate ??

Definitely not, no reference was made to an associate. During the telephone conversation to arrange the "full condition pre purchase survey" I was left with the impression only one person would be doing the survey, the Mr XXX I was speaking to and of the same XXX name in the YM advert.

In future I will directly ask a surveyor to confirm if he will be the only person doing the survey and for a statement on the minimum period he will be on the yacht.

> I would have greater respect for MRINA than YBDSA .... as
> they ARE a professional body - not self appointed.

Most professional bodies are self-appointed. It is simply a case that some have been around long enough to get "Royal" tagged onto their name and sometimes their closed-shop practices have been confirmed in law.

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[Guest]

Letters and Associations

Are not a guarantee or real indicator of experience or quality. Forget all the BS you see written about 'Professional Vetting' before allowing a 'membership' - the truth is not quite so 'dandy'.

I agree that a real good one is hard to find - but not impossible and one of the pointers I always recc'd - is chat to other yotties around you .... who did they use, how much, what was the results, did they discuss all points before writing report etc.

I know of cases where engines are recc'd changed - Surveyor taking the old and selling it off - engine of course did NOT need changing, marking DOWN a value to allow a 'pal' to buy, writing all sorts of 'crap' in the report that wss NEVER discussed with client - in fact in some the client managed to dispute the report as the surveyor stated items that weren't even there !!

Sensible approach and sensible questions qwill weed out most problems - but of course its impossible to sort all ....


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Mike2822425]

Re: Letters and Asstions

TO ALL OF YOU I SAY LISTEN TO NIGEL!!!!!

It was 5yrs. ago when I posted "Surveyors and Negligence" . I am still out £250.000 because of a "duff" surveyor with bad/no insurance. Membership of YDSA or any other body is only the start. They are required to have "indemnity insurance" BUT they can cancell it, or fail to pay premiums (after applying for membership) and so you are left with nothing!!!

If your Surveyor states he is insured through a PDI Club (Protection and Indemnity Club) avoid him like the plague. If you make a claim against him, he will have to pay you first , before he can claim against his insurers, so if £250.000 is too much for him to pay out, he will go bust (change his name slightly) and continue trading. AND YOU ARE THE LOOSER LEGALLY>

Been there, done it got, the T/shirt, into court, won the day, and still no money. The surveyor filed for insolvency only days before the hearing, and is still trading.

The best surveyor you can have is someone recomended by a friend or your Club.


They are not all villains but "some are better than others".

Good to hear you are still disspensing common sense Nigel.

Due to "reduced cicumstances" I am now refurbishing a Folk Boat so with a bit of luck will get afloat again.

Mike.



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[Fill]

When we bought our first boat, greener than grass or a seasick ****, we employed a surveyor who charged some £400 for his report. This was detailed and put us right off buying the boat!

However, he had said to phone him over the report and when we did he assured us the boat was a reasonable price for the condition, but to use his report to reduce the price slightly, also - since it was out of the water and he couldn't test the engine to withhold £2000 against sea trials.

We were able to negotiate a reduction in the price as well as have work done which more than paid for his fees and his tip about the engine costs was invaluable as it became clear that the vendor's assurances that the engine was perfect were wishful thinking, compounded by dire diy work the vendor had conducted on the engine so that the head had to be totally reconditioned.

We were also told that the service was good for as long as we had the boat and when a grp repairer, who was doing some work told us that the hull was wet and that he would treat the osmosis for a mere £3000 we were reassured when our original surveyor returned free of charge and did a further hull survey confirming it as dry. Before anyone says well he would say that wouldn't he, when we later sold the boat there was another survey for the new purchaser by a totally different surveyor who commented how dry the hull was.

We also heard from a friend that he was in a well known broker's when they were selling a 2nd hand boat and the purchasers were so new that even the broker was suggesting they had a survey done. "Can you recommend a good surveyor", says the purchaser, "no, it's not ethical", says the broker.
Our friend then mentioned the surveyor we had used and the broker groaned and said "Well, not that good"

So, they're not all bad.



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[Rowana]

Since I may have need of one soon . . .

. . . any recomendations on someone on the Clyde??

Or even who to avoid ! !

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[jonjo]

Re: My survey was on the South Coast

You won't bump into Mr XXX up there.

Anyhow he might be a proficient surveyor, I will never know.

I can see how this situation developed. We are in a peak boat buying period and the yacht I was interested in was 6 years old and the design had one of the biggest European production runs in the late 90's. It probably seemed like a safe bet for the surveyor to subcontract out the legwork to a less well known junior, but he should have told me.

Trust my luck to make an offer on hull no. 1 off the production line, sort of made it easy to walk away from the surveyor farce without getting angry! Think I will only be happy with a brand new yacht, I am fed up with second hand problems.

My new yacht will live in a non tidal marina, for every second she is in a travel hoist I will be walking alongside and she will spend her winters cosseted in the best custom made cradle under a stem to stern full winter cover. She will be out of the water for 5 months each year, the bilges will be gently warmed throughout the winter backed up by a dehumidifier on a conservative setting. In year 3 she will go into a professional paint shop where at perfect temperature and humidity she will be sprayed with copious amounts of epoxy copper coat under the waterline.

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[penfold]

Re: Since I may have need of one soon . . .

Ian Nicolson is good on wooden boats. He's a little eccentric and could possibly talk you to death, but he's been around since God was a boy. The Survey One chaps are supposed to be pretty good too, but I have no direct experience of them.

Cheers,
David

<hr width=100% size=1>OMG, Schrodinger's cat is dead!

 

[Guest]

No-one said they were all bad....

I know many that are good and fair. Problem is that there are too many cowboys.

The other problem is ---- and here please do not get upset -

A good surveyor can fall foul of a client who doesn't explain properly what he wants, or considers that he knows better. That slip-up costs dear as the client will advertise the 'facts' ..... a very good surveyor friend of mine suffered that a few years ago and it was grossly unfair. The client wanted a 'full' survey, done in writing ..... he then complained that the report was far above what he needed and also gave him trouble with insurers. Thats the gist of it - details are too many to go into greater detail and I think you see what I'm getting at.

It goes back to be precise and sensible about what you want. TRY and be there when its being done - to talk and see what is found. You may have a repair schedule etc. that is of interest, you may know of repairs carried out in past that affect the survey ....

A GRP Silhouette was looked at by me ..... small but kindly craft - going to new owners and they wanted a check-over. Moisture readings were strange ..... mostly dry, but isolated really wet high readings. Literally a cats cradle of high readings. Went inside boat and checked ..... while talking to seller ..... I sked if the boat had ever been floaded .... answer - about 3 yrs previous the hatch was open and she filled with rain-water ..... There it was - the bulkheads were wet and hadn't dried out - the meter was picking up the joints inside the hull ..... A good example of owner - surveyor chat.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[graham]

Re: Letters and Asstions

Contained amongst the hundreds of words on the subject has to be the best advise of all from Mike 282.....

"The best surveyor you can have is someone recommended by a friend or your club"

The only thing I would add is to make sure their report is acceptable to your insurance company.

 

[DeeGee]

Re: No-one said they were all bad....

I can't remember if it was luck or judgement when I needed a surveyor on the East Coast, and the only reccomendations were for S Coasters...

I located a Mr Alan Hill (I think that was his name, now dead, I understand) who was the designer of the Biscay 36. I figured he should know his way around boats - and I was pretty right. He found everything. Once we had the boat, no new nasties made themselves felt. Made me wish I had looked for a Biscay 36!! I think Paul Heiney/Libby Perves has one?...

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[petery]

Why can't we have an equivalent of the Pub and Restaurant recommendation Forum for Surveyors - it seems to be totally pot-luck. Those whose names are missing will be damned by faint praise.

I bought a 25 year old boat and, talking to the surveyor after the pre-purchase survey, he commented on the painted finish to the hull - I had to tell him it was the original gel coat.

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