Survey why bother

[Guest]

In October last year I bought my first boat. I had a survey carried out with the boat removed from the water and according to the report all was well. The boat was removed from the water for winter storage 2 weeks after the survey. I am now renewing the anti fouling and have noticed a fairly large patch of blister in an area of about 2 sq ft.(osmosis ?) I contacted the surveyor to ask if ,as he had missed this problem ,he had any insurance to cover the cost of repair. He told me that marine surveyors do not offer this kind of cover (as building surveyors do). Is this true ?

 

[Guest]

I know what you mean. Last time i bought a boat i called several surveyors and asked what comeback i had on them if they missed something. The answer from all of them was 'NONE!'

wonder why i then spent a day crawling over under and through the boat and ended up with a far more detailed survey than they offered.

 

[Guest]

Re: Some advice....

Yes people make mistakes, surveyors included, but unless you have a strong belly and don't mind the possibility of hating the boat for the hassle, then don't bother with bringing a claim.

First you have to establish what the problem is. If it is osmosis in a small area, then buy the treatment and do it yourself.

Of course if the surveyor has been negligent then he is liable for any losses which arise from that negligence, irrespective of whether he has insurance or not. But is it worth it.

A true story. Man buys a nice big 46 footer to do some retirement cruising. He has it surveyed. The surveyor doesn't pick up osmosis and the new owner commences proceedings. The surveyors insurers dig their heels in. Eventually it is settled in the owners favour (after 3 years)

In that three years the new owners wife develops arthritis and can't work the boat. He can't singlehand it and so the cruising dream is finished. He found the whole episode of the claim extremely stressful.

I think you are better of sailing!

 

[Guest]

Can't find their details at the moment but you could ask the advice of the YBDSA or YDSA. Bordon, Hants. They are the association to which "answerable" surveyors belong.

 

[Guest]

YBDSA

Wrong ....... YBDSA is a self-appointed body and has NO judicial / authority or other power over any surveyor whatsoever. The only control is voluntary on the part of the surveyors who belong to it.

I for one refused point blank to accept their invitation to join, based on :

a) I did not agree to their insistence on infalting my fees. b) I did not agree with being vetted by so-called experts, that I regarded as in some cases less experienced than many I know. c) I have confidence in my own ability and do not believe in associations such as this.

They fall into the same category as : Glazing Association - self appointed / 'regulating?' etc. etc.

There are many responsible and experienced surveyors out there, without resorting to such 'bodies' .....

Finally, to put the record straight .... there are NO recognised, legal Qualifications for Marine Surveyors, especially when it comes to the Yacht world .... don't listen to the hype YBDSA gives out .... look carefully at the wording and you will see the 'inference', NOT actual statement !

If the Surveyor makes a mistake .... hit him hard .... anthing is better than nothing.

 

[Guest]

A few thoughts from (bitter0 experience:

Over the years I've had 10 boats surveyed for me, and watched whilst a similar number of different surveyors scrutinsed my boats for others.

1 - there are very competent, professional surveyors who do not belong to the YBDSA 2 - membership of the YBDSA does not guarantee that you get a competent, conscientious survey. It does, however, mean the surveyor has indemnity insurance. 3 - if you're sure of your case, act on it. 5 years ago (ish) I sought £26,000 for professional negligence against (yes) a YBDSA surveyor. The case was as clear cut as it was shocking. It took less than two months of correspondence with his loss adjuster to achieve full settlement. Courts in UK take a very dim view of people who hold themselves out as a professional, and then act negligently - the duty of care is high.

 

[Guest]

From personal experience (two osmosis treatments) Sinbad is right.Most important thing is to get on with life and enjoy your boat. If you can do that and prove the surveyor negligent (because that is what you have to do. Missing something is not sufficient of itself) then great - go ahead. Months of your life and all the aggravation is worth more than a few quid.

Worst thing about osmosis is the aggro and time lost having it sorted out. Much better and more reliable to do it yourself. Quite easy to do - only problem is that a diy job could present difficulties on re-sale. So have a surveyor monitor your work as you do it.

Win both ways, dont they?

 

[Guest]

Nothing to stop you claiming it from him, insurance or no insurance. Does he have any money?

 

[Guest]

It's not true John. The same thing happened to a mate and after a long, fairly drawn out correspondence, the surveyor said that he was authorised by his insurance company to offer the sum of £xxxx. The sum covered the cost of osmosis treatment.

 

[Guest]

Doing your own repairs.

If you are confident of doing a proper repair or any modification for that matter, then take plenty of detailed photographs so that you have the proof to show to your insurance company. That way you will win their confidence without resorting to the say-so of a surveyor who has only seen part of the job and not the detail that you are able to present. If the detailed description doesn't convey to your insurance company the realisation that you know what you are doing then change to one that does.

Surveyors do not have a monopoly on knowledge of boats, particularily in respect of your own boat if you are the handy type and are capable of doing all your own work. If you have spent many hours over a period of years, repairing, modifying and maintaining your boat, then no-one knows it better than you.

If you can impress upon your insurance company that you do know what you are doing, are concientious about your commitment to maintaining your boat and accutely aware that if the boat sinks beneath you - then you sink with it. Then any reasonable insurance company should respect that you are probably a better risk than many.

If you are buying a boat then it is up to you to have a very good look over the boat yourself beforehand and make sure that the surveyor checks every thing that you want him to and let him know in advance that if he misses something significant that he should have noticed, then you will be holding him liable. It is the old cliche about 'he who pays the piper'. He is being paid for his 'expertise' and if he doesn't deliver then you sue.

Gus.

 

[Guest]

Most reports I have read usually say something like "....osmosis treatment may be required in the next three years.." which seems to be the way surveyors cover their backs!

 

[Guest]

Agree with the others here. Anyone setting himslef up as a 'Surveyor' and charging a fee for his services, has a legal 'duty of care' to ensure that the advice he is giving is - within reason - sound.

If your Surveyor has missed something as obvious as patch of osmosis, then he is unlikely to have any defence if you sue him

But, as others have found out it can be a load of hassle which delays your sailing plans while the courts sort it out.

Your surveyor will not admit he has any legal liability for his mistake, unless he is a complete fool, so do not be deterred by that little ploy. Its much the same as your car insurers insisting you do not admit liability when you have driven your car into something! So dont be put off - seems you have a good case for claiming negligence.

 

[Guest]

So, in answer to the original question it would seem to be a NO then?

 

[Guest]

He should have some form of indemnity insurance - but thats his problem if he hasnt - not yours, and makes no difference if you have a go at him - except that it may be more difficult to get money out of him if you win. You pays your money and takes your choice.

 

[Guest]

Re: YBDSA

I've not been online this weekend, so my reply is somewhat late.

How can you say I am wrong when I suggest seeking "advice" from the YBDSA? They might not give it anyway. It was only advice that I suggested. On the subject of their validity which is a separate issue, you say that the only control is voluntary. It makes sense to me that someone looking for a boat surveyor "from cold", would get considerable comfort from this system. It has me in the past. In the absence of adverse information, one cannot doubt your ability. I think though that it would help first timers if they had some tangible reason for confidence. It's clear that some boat owners or prospective purchasers have suffered. So how do they know where to go if they don't have a reliable reference?

Yes associations have to be meaningful but it's up to the good guys to ensure that they are known.

 

[Guest]

NO!

You could ....1 - Inform him you will send a copy of his letter to all the editors of yachting magazines and ask whether they think they should permit him to advertise in their magazines knowing what has happened.

2 - Expect cheque by return of post.

or you could do nothing Best of luck

 

[Guest]

Re: Survey why bother: insurance implications

Phone a few insurers for quotes on a wooden/ol boat, and they'll ask for a survey. From a 'qualified' surveyor. What do they mean by qualified, you ask? They go and ask the boss. Well, the YBDSA, one will say. The next will just say 'well, a yacht surveyor...' How good is your insurance in this case? Whatever one's suspicions of self-appointed bodies (see also estate agents!) it seems necessary to deal with a YBDSA member if you want watertight(!) insurance. Or can anyone suggest a wooden boat insurance policy where no such stipulations apply?