Surprise verdict

[Adrianwool]

Had a couple of friends over to stay this past weekend, and while the ladies were doing their thing, talk amongst the gentlemen (inevitably drifted onto the subject of boats).

One of the guys is in the process of looking for a new boat, he has owned many boats over the years from small sailing boats to flybridge boats to his current Linnsen Grand Sturdy bought new two years ago. Due to a change in plans (mainly brought about by the arrival of grandchildren!), his vision of cruising the near waterways of Europe at a leisurely pace with his wife has flown out of the window. Consequently he is on the hunt for a replacement sports boat of around the 50 foot mark.

When I say this guy does his homework before parting with his money I think that to be a slight understatement, he gets below the skin (literally) of all potential purchases, I suspect this is due to his working life background in quality engineering.

The results he came up with rather surprised me, in terms of the three principal UK manufacturers products he looked at, Princess, Fairline, & Sealine, he rated Princess worse and Sealine best with Fairline middling. He said that you had to look through the glitz and shine and he found the underlying engineering of Princess and Fairline lacking, particularly in regard to such itens as electrical fittings, distribution arrangements, locker interiors etc. Fairline were better & Sealine best. I was surprised, I have never owned one of the UK mainstream builders products but from reviews have always believed it to be a 'two horse race' between Princess and Fairline with Sealine a neck or so behind, (in terms of quality).

He also looked at Windy which he described as excellent but it had to be discounted on the substancial price premium that you pay against mainstream products. At the budget end of the market he said that Jenneau produced a good solid build with impressive finishing.

He has finally decided to buy a Sealine S48 as the best compromise for what he needs.

I declare no favourites from this discussion, but thought it might make an interesting topic for the forum.

 

[Firefly625]

.........I declare no favourites from this discussion, but thought it might make an interesting topic for the forum.

....I think it may be a case of light blue touch paper and run....

 

[gjgm]

Had a couple of friends over to stay this past weekend, and

also looked at Windy which he described as excellent but it had to be discounted on the substancial price premium that you pay against mainstream products.
QUOTE]

A man of great insight , I see !

Only question I might have is whether his engineering background means that he is identifying differences that might be of interest to him, but have little practical bearing on the performance or longevity of life of the boat. Still, an interesting view that might run against current opinion.

 

[Chris_d]

Not nessecarily a surprise it depends on what your looking at, engineers see things differently.
I used to work very closely with engineers at BMW in Munich and they used to comment that being a small car company (relatively), they didn't have the same development budget of some of the bigger guys. Therefore their build quailty, reliability and safety standards weren't as good as many other manufacturers, their target was to be as good as Ford.

 

[RogerRat]

At the budget end of the market he said that Jenneau produced a good solid build with impressive finishing.

He has finally decided to buy a Sealine S48 as the best compromise for what he needs.

I'm not surprised in his final choice, it shows that he hasn't owned a fast planing motor cruiser before. The S48 is exactly that, a compromise.

The S48 is one of those boats that looks great at the boat show safely tied up. The way Sealine work the useable interior space is great and the rear cabin is also very nice. That said, it's a flimsy flat bottomed boat that will probably, slam, crack and even chine walk as well. Sorry.

As to the Budget Jenneau, you get what you pay for. I've always been impressed with their lower end Merry Fishers, even up to the Prestige 32, they produce value. I have friends that have had cupboards falling off the wall, literally in a force 4. and others that were very limited on the weather they could use their Prestige 32 but now they have a proper P42 Princess they can cruise with us or when they want to. I don't believe that even Jenneau think they are a quality boat but a budget flat bottomed boat, nice for rivers and coastal use only. Of course, just my opinion.

Fairline, Princess both make boats with proper hulls and if you want to cruise at planing speeds over a decent range and offshore, they are hard to beat.

I notice no mention of Sunseeker in your engineering friends review. Sunseeker have to be included in any quality discussion.

Thanks for posting the 'verdict' I'll be interested to hear what he buys next year.

 

[ian38_39]

I have only owned Sealine and have to say that the fit and finish along with quality of mainstream fittings has been excellent, whether it is better than Fairline and Princess I couldn't possibly say but what I can say is that Sealine manage to design in a hell of a lot more accomodation for the same area.

If you are looking at underlying engineering you have to look at the big bits first and popular consensus seems to say that Sealine are the most likely to have structural issues with the hull, maybe as a percentage of boats built it is incorrect and they just build more boats in the classes that are most abused by the sea, hence more reported problems.

Right or wrong is a discussion for another thread but I would be interested to know how he analysed the hull construction?

 

[ian38_39]

Think a comparison between a Sealine 32? and a Princess 42 as to sea keeping is a little loaded, 10' of hull tends to make a bit of a difference.

 

[Nick_H]

he found the underlying engineering ..... such itens as electrical fittings, distribution arrangements, locker interiors etc.

Useful info thanks. If my boat starts falling to pieces, i'll upgrade the light switches and line the lockers in carbon fibre

 

[Adrianwool]

Hi Roger,
There was no mention of Sunseeker because he did not look at one, I confined what I posted to strictly what was the subject of the conversation we had. I thought it sufficently interesting enough to post for forum discussion as much lineage has been made in the 'mags' about these three manufacturers, and it seemed worthy of opening up the discussion to all.

Regards

Adrian

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

As to the Budget Jenneau, you get what you pay for. I've always been impressed with their lower end Merry Fishers, even up to the Prestige 32, they produce value. I have friends that have had cupboards falling off the wall, literally in a force 4. and others that were very limited on the weather they could use their Prestige 32 but now they have a proper P42 Princess they can cruise with us or when they want to. I don't believe that even Jenneau think they are a quality boat but a budget flat bottomed boat, nice for rivers and coastal use only. Of course, just my opinion.
Fairline, Princess both make boats with proper hulls and if you want to cruise at planing speeds over a decent range and offshore, they are hard to beat.

I cannot understand this comparison between a 32 footer and a 42, and second I was on all the makers you mentioned and have seen cupboards flying also on them.
Just not to go into details it was a dozen different models in about Force 5 seas 6 ft waves and all cruising at about 18 knots.
Just for the record Prestige hulls are also designed by a certain Michael Peters described by many critics as todays best vee hull designer.

Apart all this a Fairline and Princess will surely ride better to most Sealine in a model to model comparisons in rough weather, (for example Sealines 360 Ambassador/37 versus the Fl 37 Targa is a better sea boat) but the difference is not as big as many here want to make it to be.
Both have a vee shape hull with a similar deadrise aft, and deeper forward sections by about 5 degrees more to fore for the Olenski hulls.
Sealine also built risky sea boats like the 30 to 33 flybridge models with stern drives. Do not accept special sea keeping in such a combination.

 

[nicho]

I'm not surprised in his final choice, it shows that he hasn't owned a fast planing motor cruiser before. The S48 is exactly that, a compromise.

The S48 is one of those boats that looks great at the boat show safely tied up. The way Sealine work the useable interior space is great and the rear cabin is also very nice. That said, it's a flimsy flat bottomed boat that will probably, slam, crack and even chine walk as well. Sorry.

Oh dear, what absolut bo****ks - it shows how little you know about the S48!! I think you may be getting a little muddled here. the S48 is built like a brick s***thouse. Massive stringers, and a very heavy lay up means the dry weight of the boat is 16000KG!! - it was designed with the American market in mind and particular attention was paid to hefty construction, hence it's weight - hull cracking has never been a issue.

At sea, it is probably the best sea hull for it's size available. It carves through the seas, dismissing large waves as if they arn't there, it NEVER slams, has a very soft ride, NEVER chine rides, and is one of the safest boats to be in during heavy weather.

It's not the largest interior for it's overall size. Being a sports cruiser on shafts (like the Targa 48), the TAMD74's take up quite a bit of hull space, but nevertheless, it has two great double cabins, two heads/showers etc and plenty of room for two couples to have a long holiday in. Quality wise, well, ours is 2001 vintage (hull number 7), 425 hours total, and she's absolutely immaculate - everything's solid and well screwed on, though due to the exceptionally soft ride, neither the fixtures and fittings, nor the passengers ever get a battering. This is the boat that other boats like to follow in it's wake in heavy weather, and the cockpit size is amazing too.

The only downside is that it can be a bit wet - the hull rides very level, and does kick up a bit of spray sometimes, which when the wind is on the beam can be blown back.

As I say, the S48 is recognised in the trade as one of the best sea hulls available, and it is a much underrated boat. The guy will LOVE it, I promise, so criticise Sealine by all means, but do take the time to get your facts right about the S48.

 

[Philiz]

I don't think your friends verdict is such a big surprise really. Like most things in life we all have our own priorities as to what is the most important thing to us, that's why some prefer Princess whilst others will swear by Fairline or Sealine etc. So we all pick what suits us the best within our budget. Most folk seem to judge on fit out and accomodation, which is fine, because lets face it, anything like a big sea is going to bust the big windows out of most of our pleasure boats anyway.

 

[nicho]

There's a lot of talk about Fairline quality, yet of late there seems to be a lot of owners around us that are far from happy with their new boats from this manufacturer, Leaks seem to be quite a problem with some, fairly minor I suppose, and probably quite easily fixed.
To be honest, if I was in the position of buying a new 50' boat (and I'm not!!), I would go for a Princess V48. From what I've seen it's a fabulous boat, well built/engineered and just ticketyboo!

 

[asteven221]

I have just spent 2 months looking for a flybridge boat 40ft to 45ft. I looked at the three manufacturers boats in question. Let me say right away I am not comparing brand new models, as I was in the secondhand market. It's is only my opinion and others boating needs might dictate a completely different choice. Anyway, I looked at Fairline Phantoms, Princess 4x0 range and Sealine F4xx ranges. Build quality? I couldn't really see an significant difference in fittings or in the GRP structures. I found obvious issues with some materials chosen by the manufacturer, which for them was probably a good idea at the time. For instance the Alcantara upholstery on several Sealine's we looked at was literally threadbare, caused by I assume UV damage. Likewise the shiny wooden veneer on the dashboard can go discoloured and on one boat we looked at was as if someone had used a blowtorch on it, it was so badly blistered. On Princess's the very shiny mirror finish wood often changes colour from maple to green! Cherry also changes colour in time. Unfortunately as most of the interior was in one of these finishes, the whole interior can become a strange plethora of colour shading. I found that all these boats have their individual build issues, but fortunately they tended to be failry obvious and cosmetic.

Where I did see a big difference was in the design of the boats as an overall package, with Sealine away ahead with their design and attention to detail compared to the other two. Needless to say I bought the Sealine. My initial mindset was to buy Princess or Fairline, however on balance the Sealine just offered more ingenuity in design for basically the same money.

IMHO I don't really think you can say one of these boats are better built than the others. From what I have seen, I think all three builders have their good days and bad days when buiding their boats. For instance, my pals one year old Phantom 46's ceiling fell down after a few weeks of his ownership. The windows also leaked. I certainly wouldn't say that the P46 is a badly built boat, but it does show that any given boat can have problems albeit in this case minor. Another pal who took delivery of a brand new Princess 460 a few years ago nearly sank on the first time out on the water because one of the seacocks wasn't installed properley. Does that make it a bad boat? Of course not, just a bad day at the factory (or quality control).

I am sure that there are many stories of individual boats with problems from all three builders in question. Personally I would doubt if any of the three builders build a badly constructed boat. Surely they have been around too long and built too many boats to still be unsure of how engineer a structurally sound hull, with good seakeeping performance for the intended purpose. Surely logic would suggest that if a builder started out designing and building boats over 30 years ago, constructed in the same materials with a fairly similar basic design, they would need to be very, very stupid not to have learnt how to do it.

 

[RogerRat]

To be honest, if I was in the position of buying a new 50' boat (and I'm not!!), I would go for a Princess V48. From what I've seen it's a fabulous boat, well built/engineered and just ticketyboo!

Now you've really confused me, with all you know about an S48, surely you'd go for one of those.

Personally, I'd take the V48 over anything Sealine has to offer, especially an S48! Sorry.


Poweryacht: Apols for badly written post earlier. I did not intend to compare a 32 with a 42 footer. I lead from a Prestige to a Princess, but fully accept that is no comparison.

Roger.

 

[nicho]

Now you've really confused me, with all you know about an S48, surely you'd go for one of those.

Personally, I'd take the V48 over anything Sealine has to offer, especially an S48! Sorry.


Poweryacht: Apols for badly written post earlier. I did not intend to compare a 32 with a 42 footer. I lead from a Prestige to a Princess, but fully accept that is no comparison.

Roger.

Still not quite with it are you Roger, maybe I've confused you!! The S48 ceased production in 2005/6, and I said (or at least meant) if I was buying a NEW (ie brand new) boat right now, it would be the V48 - I do not like the design of the current Sealine range.

PS no need to keep apologising!! Seriously, though, the S48 is a stunning sea boat, not to be confused with the S41/42.

PPS I'd watch out for that killer whale you are riding - they can turn nasty you know, as has just happened in Florida!

 

[gjgm]

Still not quite with it are you Roger, maybe I've confused you!! The S48 ceased production in 2005/6, and I said (or at least meant) if I was buying a NEW (ie brand new) boat right now, it would be the V48 - I do not like the design of the current Sealine range.
****
I think that also raises a point about how much we think historically about a brand and how much opinion is based on their latest output.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Now Nicho being a Sealine fan you should stick with an SC47 which as the SC35 has a hull designed by Micheal Peters. Altough they still run a bit high for my tastes.
The V48 had to be stopped in production last year, altough Princess are still advertising this model.

 

[nicho]

Now Nicho being a Sealine fan you should stick with an SC47 which as the SC35 has a hull designed by Micheal Peters. Altough they still run a bit high for my tastes.
The V48 had to be stopped in production last year, altough Princess are still advertising this model.

We've had 7 different Sealines, starting at 25', now up to 48'. Two were brand new (F33 and S37), rest have been used. We really have had no problems with any of them, though the S41 did not have the best sea hull in the world (!) I really cannot take to the new range, the SC47 would certainly not be my choice nowadays - just don't like the looks, though it too has a very good hull evidently (Michael Peters)

I did not know the V48 had now ceased production - Princess boats are commissioned from our pontoon, and daily we have to walk past things like V78's being readied for some lucky so and so!!. When that lottery win arrives, and a (brand new) boat is to be ordered, it will be from the Princess range - love them. Meantime, more than happy with our used S48 - I'd go anywhere in it, knowing we will be well looked after if it blows a hooley!

PS bet you are missing all our lovely weather here!!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Definitly not missing any of your weather... I love the sun and the heat....
We had for the most part a very mild winter and temperatures since a week are startng to go up here, which makes you feel even more the season is coming.
But altough it is good temperatures its been also very windy. Yesterday evening was a Force 7 to 8 Northerly, and 3 out of 7 days in a week are like. Saturday should again get windy about Force 6.
Boat is still on the hard and will stay there till April so at the moment I say let it blow.