Super Falcon 45 steel mobo - snap it up or run away?

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Andrew72

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Hi everyone,

I've been looking at a few mid 90s, dutch steel mobos recently and wanted to ask your advice. Apologies in advance for a very long-winded post!

There's a Valk Super Falcon 45 in the Netherlands that needs TLC (probably a lot of it!) but it might be a good project.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bzn74c1pofgFZVE0c3psN2Q5ZDg

All the photos I've taken of the boat are here ...

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bzn74c1pofgFTE9kcTlDRFpXNFE&usp=sharing

I've read lots of posts on the Mobo and Thames forums about dutch steel boats and what to look for / avoid (rusting bilges, etc.)

I'm considering putting in a cheeky offer (naturally subject to a full survey) but I wondered what the forum thought first.

Should I try to get this boat for a good price (-30%) or run away very quickly and look for something better? :)

The exterior seems pretty sound with the paintwork in good condition.

The main things that concern me are ...

- The engines

https://goo.gl/photos/RQkweyS4wf42uj3r6

2 x TAMD41B 150HP units with 1500 hours that were last serviced 4 years ago.
The boat has been up for sale for 2 years and I'm not sure it's been used in that time.
It needs new batteries.
It looks like there's been an oil spill (or is that explosion?!) in the engine room. My first thought is to avoid any mobo without a clean engine room.

It seems as though there's condensation over everything in the engine bay. Is that normal for a boat that's been sitting for 2 years? Or is there some, deeper problem?

I'm prepared to spend money overhauling the engines but I don't want to spend 1000s and 1000s if it's cheaper to buy a newer / better boat.


- The corrosion / staining in the bilges

https://goo.gl/photos/xoZbnJQW3e78g4418

I'm not sure exactly what's happened in the engine bay / bilges. It looks like part oil spill / part surface rust. It's difficult to tell at first glance whether the rust is really severe or if it looks worse because of the oil staining.

I'm understand that Valk boats are well built so should probably have been acid etch primed and epoxy painted from new.

Do the bilges look like they could be fixed with a really good clean, surface rust treatment and repaint? Or are they too far gone?


- Leaking hatch windows

The square window hatches (Lewmar?) above both bow and aft cabins are leaking and probably need renewing.

https://goo.gl/photos/ZYPKsyu8r1Sn6eMk7

Replacing the windows and the rotten wood around the window interior shouldn't be too big a job, should it? Would I need to replace all the headling in each cabin? The headliner "appears" to be in good condition throughout and, thankfully, in small panels so their easy to access or replace.


- Smell

I realise many, old and rarely used mobos can have a whiff about them but the smell on this boat seems to be mainly from the engine / bilges. The bilges are dry though. I think it's just the oil / surface rust that smells.

Clearly the boat needs a good airing, a thorough clean and new upholstery, carpets, etc. The smell seems to be mainly from the bilges / engine.

Access to the engine is via the stairs that lead from the saloon down to the aft cabin. The insutlation material underneath the stairs was very damp / soggy and probably a big part of the smell.

If I renewed all the insulation material and put a very good rubber seal on the stairs so it's water / air tight, surely that would keep any engine smells in the engine room?

I presume "sealing off" the stairs in this way wouldn't cause a problem for the engine? I guess it's getting enough air from vents and not relying on the small amount of air that might come in from the saloon via the stairs.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give. Even if it's just telling me to wise up and look for another boat! :)
 
Not a mobo'er but I get jumpy when I see teak decking on steel.

I see they are screwed down as well. To what?

I love my teak decks which I've recently renewed but mine are glued not screwed (to GRP).

Personally, I'd be looking there first to see what might be happening to the steel underneath.
 
My 2p? I'd walk away.

I was looking to buy one of these about 10 years ago. The fact I didn't had nothing to do with the Falcons themselves (or similar like the Altenas and others I looked at). The Dutch are masters at building such boats.

The main thing I remember from the boats I looked at was how well Dutch owners looked after their boats. Every engine space I looked at was pristine. You could quite happily eat your dinner off the floor of most. And the rest of the boats were equally well maintained. I remember thinking how it put most UK owners to shame. I didn't see any examples that came anywhere close to the one in your link. That, to me, just screams trouble and considerable time and expense to try and put right, assuming that's actually possible. And Tradewinds is correct that teak decking on steel is not a happy combination in a boat's later years. I can say that from personal experience having owned (prior to my current boat) steel boats for over 20 years. That one is just too much of a gamble whatever price you were able to get it for.

Be aware also the buying process in Holland is different to over here. Have you checked how this actually works.
 
At that price (less cheeky offer) I would get it surveyed to find out the state of the steel hull and under the teak decks. The surveyor should have one of those inductive devices to measure the thickness of the steel. The bilges in the engine bay look like they have been left a long time with river water seeping in - either the stern glands or an engine cooling leak somewhere. Most of that gunge will probably wash off with a jet washer and some elbow grease. The oil spills look like someone has been cack handed or not put a filter on properly. After that there will probably be some rust but nothing a grinder wouldn't shift.

The engines want a good looking at - just in case they have partially siezed after 2 years standing still (probably not if no internal leaks). You should be able to turn it over by hand to see what it feels like.

edit - having seen later posts and the general prices in Holland I would walk away unless they go for a really really cheeky offer
 
Last edited:
Thanks everyone for your replies - really good to get someone else's perspective as I suspect I may have some rose-tinted glasses on at the moment! :)

@Tradewinds - yes, I'd heard teak on steel isn't a great combo although every steel mobo I've seen has it. I hadn't noticed it was screwed in place on this one though, which pic did you see that in?

@Wavey - I'm inclined to agree with you. The state of the engine bay was pretty surprising and the true extent of the mess was only clear when I visited the boat. I saw another boat that day at the Devalk brokerage and it was a lot tidier (although it did smell of vomit inside! Think it might have been some dodgy glue but it put me right off). I'd much rather spend more initially and not have such a massive project to take on.

I've had a look into how the Dutch sell their boats and it seems fairly straightforward ....

- put in an offer
- agree price subject to survey
- have survey
- agree to things being fixed included in price or a re-negotiation of price
- if an agreement can't be met then I believe it's ok to walk away

That's my understanding after speaking to a couple of Dutch brokers who are HISWA members. Have I got it wrong?

@Kashurst - My initial visit it was purely to see the general condition of the boat. I may well take a second look (with someone who knows more about engines than me) to give it a test run. Ideally I'd like to get a survey before making an offer but that's not the way it's done over there it seems. I think there's certainly potential in this boat but, as @Wavey points out - that engine bay should be spotless. If it was my boat and I was trying to sell it, I'd at least gives the engine bay a major clean and have a go at getting the bilges cleaner. I think, sadly, it's just had too much neglect.

@A1GSS - Yes, Devalk have some decent boats for sale. I was looking at a 2 engine mobo to give me a the chance for a bit of coastal cruising as well as rivers / canals. I did see a nice Valk Royal 50 but, odd though it might be, the smell inside really put me off. I just couldn't wait to get off the thing! The Devalk guys were really helpful though and I've heard good things about them.

Thanks again everyone.
 
Here you go.

motorjacht-super-falcon-45-1412730055.jpg


30+ plugged screw heads alone in that area alone
 
Excellent thread, I cannot believe just how much room they have inside compared to a grp one, which in my eyes always looks cramped even on the big machines.
A whole new world to look at:encouragement:
 
The antithesis of Sunseeker really, quite "traditional" whatever that means. If we lived on or near the Thames I'd have one. Superb for rivers and coastal pottering, continental canals and waterways usually easily accessible too. Loads of space as you say. Many semi custom options if you're buying new, the interior layout can be very flexible. Very heavy so feel very solid and stable, and the Dutch are world leaders at this game, so the boats have developed to a very high standard now.
 
Andrew

De Vaulk, de vliet @ muiden are both brokers with a good reputation. The dutch make a particularly nice type of solid cruising motor yacht. But then I am biased.

Speaking from the perspective of looking after and using a 54 steel dutch yacht, with teak decks since 1990....

Deck life expectancy 20 25 years, so test for springiness under foot.


I notice from the engine room pics, the stbd gearbox has been replaced. unusual to have problems at this power. so damage from grounding, hard running????

The brown splashes are a dutch rust treatment, usually an epoxy liquid splashed over the area to seal out further corrosion.

Personally I would want to see engines and genny running before parting with my cash, along with the plumbing being filled and tested.

The hatch rot tells of zero care for a long while, so expect most things to have suffered, from damp and corrosion. look carefully at switch gear, wiring, anything electronic.

Enjoy the search.
 
david_bagshaw said:
Andrew

De Vaulk, de vliet @ muiden are both brokers with a good reputation. The dutch make a particularly nice type of solid cruising motor yacht. But then I am biased.

Speaking from the perspective of looking after and using a 54 steel dutch yacht, with teak decks since 1990....

Deck life expectancy 20 25 years, so test for springiness under foot.


I notice from the engine room pics, the stbd gearbox has been replaced. unusual to have problems at this power. so damage from grounding, hard running????

The brown splashes are a dutch rust treatment, usually an epoxy liquid splashed over the area to seal out further corrosion.

Personally I would want to see engines and genny running before parting with my cash, along with the plumbing being filled and tested.

The hatch rot tells of zero care for a long while, so expect most things to have suffered, from damp and corrosion. look carefully at switch gear, wiring, anything electronic.

Enjoy the search.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips David. I didn't notice that the teak was springy so maybe it's ok. Presumably, less springy is a good thing?

However, there's clearly a lot of neglect in general on this. I'll be heading to the Netherlands to look at some other yachts soon and may take a second look at this one with the engines / genny running to see how it feels. I've had my doubts about this one from the start but hoped there might be a chance it wouldn't be a money pit. I don't mind taking on a bit of a project but not one that means pouring good money after bad.

I'll keep you posted on any successful searches :)
 
Andrew72 said:
Thanks for the tips David. I didn't notice that the teak was springy so maybe it's ok. Presumably, less springy is a good thing?
Click to expand...

The problem with that form of deck construction is that the teak is bedded down on sealant and then screwed down. The screws, plugs and of course the caulking are all potential paths for water to get underneath the teak. A good initial check is to wet the deck on a good drying day and see if there are any places that dry more slowly as this is an indication that the sealant has failed. You may also find rust stains where teak butts up against steel for example round hatches or where fastenings go through the teak. The water can then corrode the steel underneath and the bond between the substrate and the teak breaks down, hence the springiness. Wear can also be a problem and the signs are plugs sticking up, ridges and lips around fittings.

As replacement is typically a £20-30k job depending on the condition of the substrate, a poor deck can seriously devalue the boat.
 
Just to add to tranona's good reply, teak was laid on plywood whhich unfortunately goes acidic as it rots. However the sealants used are usually epoxy related so are of high quality.

Deck margins are the big problem from a water ingress point of view, so the seam between the deck and cabin side need to be good and waterproof. Decks looked quite good in your pics, which is suprising in view of the hatch rot.

Yes firm is good. any springyness = problem.
 
Thanks @Tranaona and @David_bagshaw for your excellent advice.

On my brief visit to the boat, the decking seemed stable enough and I didn't see any rust around the margins. I did think that the leaking hatches and hatch rot might be hiding something more than just a perished window seal though.

When I go back to Holland to look at some more boats I may take a second, closer look at this Falcon (to confirm everyone's fears about the engines and teak - just so I can totally rule out buying it).

And thanks to everyone else for the extra boat links. I'd only searched for 1990 onwards but there are a few 1988/89 Falcons out there that seem well looked after. I'm arranging more viewings during January.

One last question for now - what are everyone's thoughts about installing an airtight seal on the stairs / engine hatch to prevent smells coming into the saloon? Would this cause any problems for the engine bay's ventilation?
 
it should be air tight, though when all is correct and you are underway there are no smells. opening the engine room door should just release hot dry air, added to the symphony of happy machinery, no whistle , just the rush of air with the turbos on boost. Nothing like it. Engine vents should be sized for the door to be sealed.
 
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