Sunseeker have a new CEO.... Again

roa312 said:
Another article about the situation at Sunseeker: Buyout of Sunseeker stalls
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Thanks for that..
It's all looking a bit bleak and murky in the waters surrounding Sunseeker at the moment.. (Excuse the puns). I know this is risky from a brand perspective and as patriotic as I am, I do wonder if shifting some manufacturing oversees wouldn't be such a bad move. Sunseeker don't seem niche in the way the likes of Cockwells appear so manufacturing / business costs for a builder of the size of Sunseeker must be prohibitive.
 
Fire99 said:
Thanks for that..
It's all looking a bit bleak and murky in the waters surrounding Sunseeker at the moment.. (Excuse the puns). I know this is risky from a brand perspective and as patriotic as I am, I do wonder if shifting some manufacturing oversees wouldn't be such a bad move. Sunseeker don't seem niche in the way the likes of Cockwells appear so manufacturing / business costs for a builder of the size of Sunseeker must be prohibitive.
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Sunseekers fixed costs are too high. There is too much waste and zero value add in their processes, plus living off past glories. Same for Princess. They need to review how the Italians run their businesses.
 
rafiki_ said:
Sunseekers fixed costs are too high. There is too much waste and zero value add in their processes, plus living off past glories. Same for Princess. They need to review how the Italians run their businesses.
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Interesting.. I'd be interested to see the difference in manufacturing of Sunseeker and some of their Italian competitors.
 
In essence ( and I am not an expert ) they design it , project manage and have the shed.

The hull moulds are sub contracted ( there is a huge manufacturer locally that does them all ). The fit is subbed to local contractors each who are specialist in their field.

Vertical integration does not work on low volumes. It is highly questionable if it works on large volumes. Vw for example who are the largest car maker sub wiring looms ( and likely loads of other stuff ) and vw clearly have enough volume for a wiring loom factory !

Cranchi have a standard spec ( or did when I had one ). Behind the ceiling panels was a grp moulding not some wooden frame made by a bloke with a chisel.

There are some horrific videos on a post on here about a year ago with princess showing their factory. It is enough to make you weep that anyone let alone a manufacturer could think the sprawling factories were a good idea.

Want furniture. Fine sub it to a local cnc cutting business etc.
 
I wonder about their continued desire to move their range into the “superyacht” territory mentioned in the article. Sunseeker has already built many yachts above the 24m length, but it seems to me that they’ve had trouble sustaining a long-term presence in that segment. I question whether their attempts to break into that part of the market have truly paid off, as their continued efforts seem to suggest.

JFM frequently pointed out that he believed both Sunseeker and Princess didn’t belong in that size bracket. Not only does the quality of fit and finish change significantly compared to the 50–80 ft market, but, as he noted, buyers at that level will have serious concerns about the financial strength and long-term viability of the company in relation to payment tranches. Princess is now also attempting to move upmarket with their Odyssey 106 ft series, and it will be interesting to see whether they can make a success of it.
 
jrudge said:
Vertical integration does not work on low volumes. It is highly questionable if it works on large volumes. Vw for example who are the largest car maker sub wiring looms ( and likely loads of other stuff ) and vw clearly have enough volume for a wiring loom factory !
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Maybe you’ve seen it, but Princess made a video to commemorate their 60th anniversary in which both the former and current management actually praise the vertical integration of Princess Yachts as one of their key strengths. See approximately 18:30–20:30 in the video below - odd world.

 
jrudge said:
Vw for example who are the largest car maker sub wiring looms ( and likely loads of other stuff ) and vw clearly have enough volume for a wiring loom factory !
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More car production wise folk on here than me, but I thought German car production was based on sub contracting? As in, no shortage of specialist firms ( probably in Germany) to tender for very large volume business.
Not sure SSeeker have a host of engineering firms to hand or the volumes?
 
gjgm said:
More car production wise folk on here than me, but I thought German car production was based on sub contracting? As in, no shortage of specialist firms ( probably in Germany) to tender for very large volume business.
Not sure SSeeker have a host of engineering firms to hand or the volumes?
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The better car manufacturers focus on those features that they believe enhances their brand. In their final assembly, they assemble 300 to 500 parts. They will take close responsibility for the shut lines, fit and finish of the body in white. They employ experts in vehicle dynamics to develop the ride and handling, plus engine//transmission calibration. These are core values. A part can be the engine/transmission, the body, the front suspension/engine system, including all mounts/springs/dampers. The interior pack includes the instrumentation, aircon/vents, safety systems, for example, All supplied in. The engine will probably be assembled in house, dressed with the intake and after treatment and drivetrain, and supplied on a pallet for stuff up. The supplier is responsible for logistics to line side committing to time slots, and gets paid when the part is assembled to the vehicle. The vehicle manufacturer will own most of the tooling, and will fund development. The Italian boat industry follows a similar path. Why do Prinny/Sunny employ 20 or so fitters to make their harnesses? What is their utilisation? Same for the cabinet makers. Sunny are extremely proud of their mould making system, and metrology. Their claims for accuracy left us astonished! They didn’t have a clue, hence all the effort to fill and smooth dents in the hull. All waste! I could go on……
 
rafiki_ said:
Sunseekers fixed costs are too high. There is too much waste and zero value add in their processes, plus living off past glories. Same for Princess. They need to review how the Italians run their businesses.
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I would sincerely hope they don’t follow the Italians, their engineering skills are very poor when it comes to boat building, I have worked in the industry for many years before retiring to see where the skills are.

You seem to post a lot here about boat building, surprised they haven’t got a forum team together to save the uk boat building industry ? There seems to be a lot of speculation on here as to how they’re all doing it wrong, it’s a totally different perspective when looking at it from the customer/boat owner side to actually producing boats, the bottom line is they are now way too expensive and looking back at all the British boat builders they all did very well before the private equity lot got their claws into things and instantly inflated figures to get more when they were obviously never going to get it long term, look how many times these businesses have changed hands recently getting passed around compared to their early years in founder ownership, there appears to be a common pattern here.

Too many people keep comparing boat building to the motor industry but there’s no similarity at all, totally different manufacturing processes.
 
jrudge said:
In essence ( and I am not an expert ) they design it , project manage and have the shed.

The hull moulds are sub contracted ( there is a huge manufacturer locally that does them all ). The fit is subbed to local contractors each who are specialist in their field.

Vertical integration does not work on low volumes. It is highly questionable if it works on large volumes. Vw for example who are the largest car maker sub wiring looms ( and likely loads of other stuff ) and vw clearly have enough volume for a wiring loom factory !

Cranchi have a standard spec ( or did when I had one ). Behind the ceiling panels was a grp moulding not some wooden frame made by a bloke with a chisel.

There are some horrific videos on a post on here about a year ago with princess showing their factory. It is enough to make you weep that anyone let alone a manufacturer could think the sprawling factories were a good idea.

Want furniture. Fine sub it to a local cnc cutting business etc.
Click to expand...

There was some hull moulding sub contracted but the majority is in house as I had a tour round the factory a short while ago, you can also clearly see the moulds being worked on when you walk past on Poole Quay.
 
After many years of churning out boats, there must be a reason UK builders are doing it in-house, even if not understood on here. I cant think when owned by PE they are doing it for non commercial reasons!
 
So let's say you are right. Why are they all losing money ?

In general terms people like their products. In general terms they all sell small volumes. They all discount.

What holds back volume is now the staggering price. A 40 ft boat is £1m.

Not long ago ( 2014) I bought a new 65 foot for £1.2m.

Buying a modest boat in years gone by was plausible for all sorts of people. They are now the toys of the wealthy. The volume is small.

There needs to be a step change in price or costs for them to sell and survive.

Vertical integration brings with it huge fixed costs that pay off at mass scale. As volumes fall costs per unit rise uncontrollably.

So fine I am 100% wrong and they are 100% right. So way are they all losing vast sums and lurch from owner to owner ?

Changing a business with thousands of employees is of course difficult. Each line manager has an interest in saying " that won't work ". And you need to produce product whilst at the same time retaining the very employees your plans make clear you want rid of. But what is the alternative ?

There is a local cnc shop near me. They have several large cnc machines costing millions each. They turnaround custom boards to an accuracy of o.1mm in about 3 days. There are plenty plenty ways of making stuff by outsourcing and making volume changes someone else's problem. You then know the cost of the supplied interior to pennies. Other companies will make those up into components for a fixed price. Buy less pay less.

This is not rocket science but they all seem in denial. Do I really care who moulds my hull ? If I do why ? It is a white shiny thing that is xx mm thing made with xxx material etc. so if it does the job great.
 
jrudge said:
So let's say you are right. Why are they all losing money ?

In general terms people like their products. In general terms they all sell small volumes. They all discount.

What holds back volume is now the staggering price. A 40 ft boat is £1m.

Not long ago ( 2014) I bought a new 65 foot for £1.2m.

Buying a modest boat in years gone by was plausible for all sorts of people. They are now the toys of the wealthy. The volume is small.

There needs to be a step change in price or costs for them to sell and survive.

Vertical integration brings with it huge fixed costs that pay off at mass scale. As volumes fall costs per unit rise uncontrollably.

So fine I am 100% wrong and they are 100% right. So way are they all losing vast sums and lurch from owner to owner ?

Changing a business with thousands of employees is of course difficult. Each line manager has an interest in saying " that won't work ". And you need to produce product whilst at the same time retaining the very employees your plans make clear you want rid of. But what is the alternative ?

There is a local cnc shop near me. They have several large cnc machines costing millions each. They turnaround custom boards to an accuracy of o.1mm in about 3 days. There are plenty plenty ways of making stuff by outsourcing and making volume changes someone else's problem. You then know the cost of the supplied interior to pennies. Other companies will make those up into components for a fixed price. Buy less pay less.

This is not rocket science but they all seem in denial. Do I really care who moulds my hull ? If I do why ? It is a white shiny thing that is xx mm thing made with xxx material etc. so if it does the job great.
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Top post. For those who think the Brit builders do it well, why are they struggling as businesses? They have a business that is supposed to make money from building and selling boats. They all boast great order books. None make a positive margin. Ok, refuse to learn from successful businesses, bury your heads, and continue to hope to get bailed out every few years by PE’s. When will these run out? What happens next skip?
 
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