Sunsail Yacht purchase - Carribean

[jordanbasset]

Hi, am looking to purchase a yacht so we can start our liveaboard adventure come June 2009. One option, among others, is to buy an ex sunsail yacht from their carribean bokerage. Am aware that these will be well used and may have issues but would appreciate some info to help me make a decision. Has any one bought a yacht direct from the sunsail/moorings brokerage, if so was the process straight forward. The boats do seem to be sensibly priced any way, but were you able to get a reduction on that price, if so any info on the sort of % figure you did get off would be appreciated. I do realise the boat will need money spent on it to make it suitable, but my thinking is that will all be new equipment so if I can get the boat cheap enough it may be the best option. Depending on answers may decide to buy an older boat with a lot of equipment on already, but that can also have problems. Any advice welcome - many thanks

 

[oceanus]

It's always worth looking at, some yachts are in bad condition, some good.

Key things:

Engine Hours/Condition - Important charter yachts = high Engine Hours.

Layout = Is the yacht a charter version? Are you sure you want this layout?

Rigging/Sails = Sometimes undersized.

Keel = Sometimes "Med Size" however, I don't this this would be in the carribean.

and...make sure you check the boat VERY well for damage, if it's been repaired, fine, but get a decent survey.

Best Of Luck.

 

[jonjo]

Yachting monthly published an expose about a ex fleet SunSail purchase 3 or so years ago, it was a horror story. The Benni 40 had been holed during a hurricane and patched up incompetently by SunSail.

Post purchase the owner got suspicious and had the yacht resurveyed by a British surveyor. It cost £20k to grind out the patch and fix things properly. Under the pressure of adverse publicity SunSail eventually offered some compensation.

Your concept of buying out in the Caribbean and starting the dream cruise there is good but put in the extra legwork and find a genuine bargain in Trinidad or other well documented location where sailing dreams hit the emotional rocks.

 

[Malabar]

Yachts kept in the Carribean (or indeed tropics generally) are pretty well hammered by UV degregation, the heat and humidity. It affects pretty well everything: sails, cordage, electrics etc. Expect significantly more problems than a boat kept in Europe and winterised.

 

[jonjo]

Forgot to add that I have only known one person on the SunSail lease scheme. His yacht suffered serious damage half way through the 5.5year lease and SunSail had to provide a substitute.

If you have the time go and wander around the boat hard standing at Port Solent and checkout the SunSail fleet casualties ashore. The angle grinders must be whining away during the week.

 

[Pinnacle]

I would be pretty wary.

Whila I am sure many charterers take good care of their yacht, sadly many will not. Not only will the engine have high hours, but just think how many times the lever will have been moved from ahead to astern with no pause in the neutral position to allow the revs to fall to idle. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I have casually looked at a few ( in the med ) but they all looked so tired I doubted that at the prices being asked they represented good value.

Best of luck with your search.

 

[curve]

I would never ever buy an ex-charter yacht. You just don't really know there history. Too much of a risk for me.

 

[HoratioHB]

Been there - not done that, you sound very much like me about two years ago! Agree with all the above, we saw an ex SS Jeanneau 40 in Trinidad this summer and despite a survey, every time the owners looked further they found more problems- rotten wood, leaking tanks etc etc. That said I did look at some inTortolla the other year and they looked pretty good after SS had refurbished them. You have to remember that if you buy an ex charter boat, you may be lucky and get a good one but you will have to spend serious money on it to make it useable as a liveaboard. when you come to sell it, it will stilll be an ex charter boat and its value will reflect that.

I bought new in the UK didn't pay VAT as I exported to the Caribbean within 90 days. We shipped over rather than sail, surprisingly cost effective and I arrived in Tortolla without a strained boat or wife! The boat is now worth more than I paid for it as VAT status doesn't count for much out here. Also privately owned (well looked after) boats are quite rare and hence command a premium.

PM me and I would be quite happy to discuss in detail.

 

[krevetka]

I took over my Sunsail yacht after 3.5 years, and she was in great condition, very well looked after, no significant issues. As several people have said you can be lucky or unlucky. I did a full survey when I took her over and definitely recommend to do the same. The only additional comment I would make is that it was only when I came to sell my yacht recently that I discovered I had been passed very incomplete documentation. If you do go ahead with the purchase, make sure you are passed the original Builders' Certificate and original of Bills of Sale for all the yacht's life (they often go through several Sunsail entities during their life and their should be a Bill of Sale for each transfer), otherwise you may not be able to sell the yacht later. I have now resolved those problems with Sunsail's help, but wish I had known to double check when I took her over.

 

[bobupanddown]

I bought an ex Sunsail Yacht from Greece about 3 yearsago.
Have been really pleased with the boat so far. Yes it is well used and the engine has high hours. But on the plus side the money saved on the purchase has enabled me to equip the boat with new gear. Sunsail are open to offers the same as any broker. (I think I got about 10% off the original price).

 

[Sailfree]

At one time many people drove cars with over 200k completed quite happily as they belived the "clocked" reading of 33,000mls.

Charter boats are well used but if well looked after will be better that an infrequently used boat. All mechanical things like being used neglect is their enemy.

I have sold 2 ex-charter boats and would have been happy keeping both for a few more years if I did not want to go bigger.

As one who has had a Volvo engine go at 581hrs I would ignore engine hours except get the compression checked and assess its condition. Price should reflect condition.

Agree that sunlight is a enemy of boats so get a survey and try to buy a privately owned but cared for ex-charter boat rather than a "fleet" boat.

 

[curve]

I have sailed on a number of charter boats and definitely wouldn't want them ever to be my boat.

 

[Bajansailor]

Re 'value for money', you need to take into account the exchange rate of the GBP against the US$ - a few weeks ago it was $2.00, today it is $1.86, and it seems to be dropping a cent a day...... and one forecast I read predicts that it will get down as low as $1.70..... and when (say) US$80k is at stake, a one cent drop is about GBP 200 extra on the cost to you when buying in sterling.........

 

[jordanbasset]

Thank you for all the replies so far, as I expected there are pros and cons, but the more info I have the more informed decision I can make.
If I decide to buy ex charter I will certainly get a full surevy and have a good look around myself first.
Re currency situation this does worry me as one reason I was thinking of buying in the U.S. was the very good exchange rate compared to the dismal euro exchange rate. If it continues to deteriorate it is another factor I will have to take into account. However I also want to sail the east coast of america and the carribean so the exchange rate was not my only reason.
Any more info any one has I would be very grateful - thanks again

 

[Tranona]

I have been very happy with my charter boat, both the charter/purchase agreement and the condition of the boat when I took it over. I don't know about Sunsail, nor the Caribbean in particular, but don't think you can compare what they do there with the boats they have in the UK. The latter are mainly used for such activities as corporate events, racing and blokes group charters. They get a different kind of use than family holidays in the sun.

Charter boats in general are well maintained because clients are very demanding and it is bad business to have a substandard or non-functioning boat. The big operators also have to dispose collectively of several hundred boats a year to renew their fleets. There must be an awful lot of satisfied buyers!

To me the advantages would be that you can buy a well equipped boat at between 10 and 20% less than an equivalent privately owned boat, already in your chosen location. Not all privately owned boats are well maintained and can often be equipped and set up in a way that does not suit. The downside is that there is a danger of latent defects or hidden poor repairs, but that can also be true of private boats. That is why you engage a surveyor.

Income from charters is a function of the number of berths so the layout, particularly on 40ft+ boats major on berths at the expense of stowage, so may not be ideal for live aboard. In our case we have twin aft cabins, small cockpit lockers and cramped loo. However, we have converted one cabin to half storage half berth and it works well.

Getting good title and documents is important and again I had no problem as my contract was with the Bavaria dealer in Greece and all the documents were in order when I took it over. The same of course applies to private purchases particularly when they are outside the UK and it would make sense to engage a lawyer to handle the transaction.

So, my advice is don't dismiss the idea. Don't however, be tempted to buy"bigger" because of the lower intial cost. The key determinant is getting a boat that satisfies your requirements, fully equipped within your budget.

 

[HoratioHB]

You may be right but to convert a Caribbean charter boat for living aboard is not cheap. Most will want a wind generator and/or solar panels, the batteries, will probably need replacing. They have very limited navigation systems so that will need upgrading and you will also need better radios. Most do not even have spray hoods. A watermaker is a good buy. On the wear and tear side I would not be surprised if you will want to replace cushions and curtains, the sails will probably be tired as well. Then there are all those little things that you will see in the chandlery that suddenly add up to lots of squids. When I looked at it I reckoned a £70k ex charter boat would need about £20k-£25k spent on it and you will never see that money back.

One further point about buying in the US - even European boats, if they were exported directly to the US often do not carry an RCD CE rating and this means that if you bring it back into europe not only will you be liable for VAT on the residual value but will pay quite a lot to get and RCD if you ever want to sell it (I have heard figures of over £5k).

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for your comments, Larry. Read my last para. The objective is to get the boat you want within your budget. The starting point may be different. A charter boat may require a different set of items to bring it up to spec compared with a privately owned boat. All things being equal, the basic fabric of the boat should be sound, and they are priced to reflect what comes with them, and the condition of the "wear" items such as soft furnishings, cordage, sails etc. It is the total cost to bring the boat up to spec that is important.

With regard to RCD, many of the boats are built by Beneteau or Jeanneau and will comply broadly speaking with the RCD even if a CE mark is not issued. Getting the CE mark if you wanted to bring the boat back into the Eu would not be as difficult, for example as for a US boat that was never sold in the EU. If the intention is to keep the boat out of the EU all this is irrelevant anyway.

At a more macro level, I can see new boats rising in price substantially as increased material costs work their way through, and there are limits to cost savings from efficiency. This could make recent boats a good buy on the secondhand market, particularly if charter fleets decide not to buy new boats, but squeeze a year or two more out of existing boats.

Interesting times!

 

[Bajansailor]

These folk are the brokers for the Sunsail and Moorings ex charter boats :
http://www.yachtworld.com/tuimarine/
Footloose is a subsidiary of the Moorings - typically a boat will spend 5 years with the Moorings, and then go into the Footloose fleet for another 4 or 5 years before being sold.

There are some bargains to be had in the BVI (where the majority of the Caribbean boats seem to be) - but you do have to be careful.

I was in the BVIs early last month looking at yachts for sale for a friend, and saw a few potential horror stories, as well as some very nice boats (on initial inspection).

Horror stories were boats that had been flogged hard for 10 years, with two different charter companies, and probably run aground quite often - I saw a few boats with sheared / delaminated tabbing in way of the 'top hat' floors under the cabin sole.

And on one boat the back end of the keel had been pushed up, indenting the hull and fracturing the transverse frames inside.
She was ashore at the time - it is probable that when she is back in the water with the hull supporting the weight of the keel, rather than the other way around, the hull would 'pop back' to its usual shape.....

 

[jordanbasset]

Thanks to every one so far for the advice. If I did go along this route the boat would be around 4-5 years old and before it went into the footloose fleet.

I do understand there will be upgrading to do, including batteries, solar power, dinghy etc. I need to work out the cost of these upgrades, then probably double it. My other option is to buy a privately owned boat with much of the equipment already on. It would (hopefully) have been better looked after but wil probably be 10-15 years old, not 4-5 years old. I suppose you pays yer money and takes yer choice.

 

[tcm]

You (nearly) hit on it there - sunsail price their old boats competetively, but they're never too desperate, whereas a private seller very well might be much keener to sell his (possibly nicer) boat.