Sunken yacht in Solent

I have, what do lights have to do with this?
You asked how many times I’d collided with a yacht not showing shapes.

The answer is none.

I was pointing out that the close calls were with yachts not showing lights. NO COINCIDENCE it turns out they weren’t showing shapes either.

Just an anecdotal bit of a story.

So are you saying you sometimes don’t bother to put up an anchor ball, but you always put an anchor light on when anchoring overnight?
 
So are you saying you sometimes don’t bother to put up an anchor ball, but you always put an anchor light on when anchoring overnight?

Well, I don't *always* do anything but I always consider showing an anchor light and I don't ever recall thinking it wasn't worth it. Especially in the busy waters I sail in currently. Being twatted by a RIB at 30kts or a fishing boat could be fatal.

I do it because it's genuinely useful, not because of some hysterical lack of understanding of insurance.

Irrelevant to this thread, obvs.
 
Really?

You're equating stopping for a cuppa, in a known anchorage, among other anchored boats, in a dead end creek, without proudly raising your black ball.... with running red lights! Why not go the whole hog and equate it with mass murder? It's all rule breaking isn't it?

Arguing by false equivalence is just another logical fallacy.

So far, the only actual argument I've seen is "roolz is roolz". Unless you want to count the hysterical "it will invalidate your insurance!".

Nobody is saying that anchor balls must never be hoisted. Just that some people, in some circumstances, don't feel they actually improve safety.
What a load of old bunny. Sorry. Not being bothered to comply with a simple rule is sheer laziness. So many people think they just don't have to bother with aspects of IRPCS as though they are somehow far too self important.

False equivalence has nothing to do with...anything. an analogy to shake people out of their indifferent torpor may help. But I doubt it.
 
I saw a very old and abused small beach ball in a dark recess of my garage, and seized the opportunity to spray paint it black from a redundant old can of Halford's paint, and created my very own anchor ball, for a net cost of virtually eff all.
Satisfying enough on its own, but the feeling of smugness that I have for 'doing the right thing' when I've anchored and raised it is priceless.
Says a lot about me.
 
Considering that the anchor ball is black...did Colregs ever intend for it to be seen ?
I think they are actually quite visible - they contrast/silloutte well
Nobody is saying that anchor balls must never be hoisted. Just that some people, in some circumstances, don't feel they actually improve safety.
But that’s not the argument that is actually happening - people are justifying their own ambivalence by saying a lot of the time they don’t add to safety rather than saying perhaps if we all did it all of the time then people who otherwise never bother might just get in the habit too for the odd occasions it does matter!
 
....and if you do run a red light, guess what. Your insurance still covers you!
In your analogy John and Mark are approaching traffic lights. Mark sees the lights change to red but chances it, whilst John sees green which he knows means proceed of safe to do so, he goes anyway, the collide. Mark’s insurer will usually pay out, he’ll lose his no claims bonus and pay higher premiums, and John will be smug despite having proceeded when it was not safe to do so. It’s an analogy that doesn’t translate well to anchoring.

Perhaps parking on a double yellow might be a better analogy. It’s similarly unclear that an insurer would argue a claim if you manage to strike a parked car just because it’s owner was not displaying a blue badge (which wouldn’t move the obstruction but would make it technically ok). However anyone who has dealt with insurers will know that if they can find a way to wiggle and make it 50:50 or some other split they will - pushing your premiums up, and costing you your excess. Your insurer might be brilliant but the other party might be insured by someone less sensible, or have a bee in their bonnet about yachties who don’t use day shapes and insist it wasn’t really their fault. Is that realistic? I don’t know - based on the internet there’s a lot of people who have never made a mistake in their life and want to pass the buck.
 
Well, I don't *always* do anything but I always consider showing an anchor light and I don't ever recall thinking it wasn't worth it. Especially in the busy waters I sail in currently. Being twatted by a RIB at 30kts or a fishing boat could be fatal.

I do it because it's genuinely useful, not because of some hysterical lack of understanding of insurance.

Irrelevant to this thread, obvs.
Do you ever put up an anchoring day shape? Or do you always not bother (or haven’t got one?)
 
Perhaps parking on a double yellow might be a better analogy. It’s similarly unclear that an insurer would argue a claim if you manage to strike a parked car just because it’s owner was not displaying a blue badge

Unclear? No it isn't. They'd still pay out.

I'm going quit this futile argument now and leave the last words for others.

If someone wants to post a few cases where claims have been rejected because a vessel has collided with an anchored vessel failing to show a day shape then great, I'll rejoin at that point.
 
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There are no actual motoring analagys. Only perhaps a reverse one. The one where a car is coming round a roundabout indicating left. You pull out, thinking they’re leaving at the next exit, before they get to you. They’re not. A boat displaying no shape is signalling that they are under way. If you’re a sailing boat under sail alone, you’d reasonably expect them to give way to you.
 
There are no actual motoring analagys.
Correct - you could say parking lights, but that is obviously not a daylight thing. Perhaps rule 239 that says not to park facing the wrong direction for traffic (which presumably is to help other mororists quickly understand your car is parked?). But that in daylight is only a should not a must. Car insurance is also different in that it is legally required by both parties, and if a party is uninsured there is still a mechanism for compensation.

Unclear? No it isn't. They'd still pay out.
But who would pay out? Would they make a fuss / make you jump through hoops / say you contributed so your excess is lost and premiums go up?
If someone wants to post a few cases where claims have been rejected because a vessel has collided with an anchored vessel failing to show a day shape then great, I'll rejoin at that point.
The problem with your demand for proof is it ignores the reality - if the other party refuses to pay it’s likely your own insurer still will (assuming you have comprehensive coverage). If the other party claims contributory negligence it delays your claim even if you ultimately win. And then there’s still the question of your excess and premiums even if only a small portion of blame was yours.

Historically there would probably have been a lot of he said / she said in any claim and “of course you were displaying the correct shape”. With cameras now being prollific that’s harder to fib your way out of - and if caught embellishing the situation insurers will refuse claims, cancel policies and make you uninsurable going forward. I suspect also that even if there were enough anchored vessels collided with by other parties to make claims statistics possible that historically those who managed to collide with such vessels were unaware of the rules on balls either, and so could neither point it out nor claim it lead to confusion. Now they will only need to post about it online and there will be a bunch of smart arses retrospectively teaching you that the vessel you hit was also breaking the col regs.

I didn’t justify my reason for displaying a shape as an insurance one, because it’s genuinely not the reason I do it, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and the risk of a claim being difficult if one arises is probably greater than the risk of being hit when not displaying a ball.
 
The Colregs works both ways....you are supposed to have the ball and lights at night and display the correct shapes if you are not under way and give way to sailing craft etc etc....but the other person is not supposed to hit you either.
So assigning blame might not go your way just because you think the other person wasn’t following the rules. Both parties are encumbered by the same rules
 
If someone wants to post a few cases where claims have been rejected because a vessel has collided with an anchored vessel failing to show a day shape then great, I'll rejoin at that point.
You know that can’t happen because none of us have access to the claims rejection files of the insurance industry. You’re also completely missing the point. It might be that claims aren’t always rejected by insurance companies if there was a collision with a yacht that wasn’t showing correct day shapes. But the insurance company might reduce their payout in the grounds that failing to display shapes contributed to the accident. I don’t need to supply numbers or accounts of incidents. Anyone with any experience of making a claim against their insurance will know that insurance companies do everything in their power to minimise their losses. They’ll use any excuse to reduce the payout and not displaying an anchor ball is an open goal for them as far as I’m concerned.

I’m certainly not trying to argue that you have to show an anchor ball because it invalidates your insurance. However if people choose not to obey IRPCS and not display an anchor ball, I’m pointing out that there are possible consequence's. It’s a risk that they take. Why would anyone take this risk when it can be an alleviated by such a simple and quick and easy action.

in my first post in this thread I remarked that I was amazed that people make such an issue about putting an anchor ball up. I’m still flabbergasted by how much hot air it’s created.
 
I'd agree. People have got this way out of perspective, and it clearly isn't based on evidence.

The whole "Invalidates you insurance" argument is just logical fallacy bingo. Appeal to Fear, Circular Reasoning and False Clause Fallacy all in one massive insult to peoples intelligence.

Then evidence is requested and we get straight into argumentum ad passiones.
Really??
Let's wait for the scam with the jet ski driver spotting an anchored boat without the correct indicator, and decides to "accidentally " hit your boat and suffered spinal injuries, fake accidents happens a lot on the road, can you afford that?
 
Really??
Let's wait for the scam with the jet ski driver spotting an anchored boat without the correct indicator, and decides to "accidentally " hit your boat and suffered spinal injuries, fake accidents happens a lot on the road, can you afford that?
Lets all fervently hope that ‘crash for cash’ is a long, long way away in the yachting world. Even in the aspects of our hobby where limits are pushed, you will, and do, get a DSQ for deliberately causing a collision, right of way or not.
 
Really??
Let's wait for the scam with the jet ski driver spotting an anchored boat without the correct indicator, and decides to "accidentally " hit your boat and suffered spinal injuries, fake accidents happens a lot on the road, can you afford that?
Just out of curiosity, how many of the average jet skiers would know the significance of the anchor ball if they saw it?

As we all know containerships manage to hit anchored tankers despite an anchor ball!
 
Ps. For those thinking that I am being overly pedantic, you are correct. It's a wet, windy Tuesday and I have cabin fever when I should be up on deck doing some jobs. I might have to grab a coat and go to the pub unless the debate improves.
A bit late, but it was sunny for me yesterday, and a pint of beer outside in the sun was very pleasant !
 
Just out of curiosity, how many of the average jet skiers would know the significance of the anchor ball if they saw it?

As we all know containerships manage to hit anchored tankers despite an anchor ball!
Ostrich springs to mind, these scams are for money if there is an opportunity they will test it, it's the world we live in today.
Don’t give opportunity, you won't be inconvenienced and have your day ruined.
As John says, just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't.
 
As a mtorboater in France there are other penalties for breaking the rules….your local Capitainerie can revoke your license.
That I guess is the analogy with driving a car that you have been searching for
 
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