Suffolk Sailing - River Orwell - Deep Draft Keel vs Shoal Draft Keel

[Major_Clanger]

Yes, many Waterwitches were slugs - too much weight and not enough sail. On the other hand, between 1970 and 1980, around 35 Golden Hinds crossed the Atlantic and no doubt many more since. More to sailing than speed.

My father moved to Gozo in 1989 to build a modified Griffiths' design in steel. It was a Francis Drake 37 that he 'stretched' by 10ft, added a bowsprit and made her ketch-rigged. She was a liveaboard and took him and his wife all over the Med before crossing to explore the Caribbean. They sailed down to Patagonia before ending-up in Florida. She had the typical triple keels and hard chines and didn't really go to windward at all but was a surprisingly good blue water boat. I'd always thought his choice bonkers and very different from the Rival 34 that he had in the 70s but I was wrong. Stall Turn was a great boat and since they were liveaboards there was no hurry to get anywhere fast. The adage that it is better to travel in hope rather than to arrive certainly applied!

 

[johnalison]

Oh dear Mr J ; might suggest that you do play down your Sailing skills /ability a good bit , I assume {#

Yes. Sailing under bare poles with next to no wind requires great skill, though pouring out one’s drink is not much of a challenge. To be fair, my boat was then brand new and about a ton lighter than it is now, and still had a clean bottom near the end of the season, but the anecdote is actually true.

 

[Marmalade]

Berthed at Shotley (bottom of Orwell). Draw 2.01m. No problems. As with all tidal sailing, be aware of the tide times and springs / neaps; ensure your depth sounder is accurate; know where the shallow bits are.
That last sounds obvious - but several times a season I see boats aground on well known and clearly marked shallows (eg Shotley spit).

 

[Kukri]

It is very easy to misjudge where you are in relation to Shotley Spit, particularly if you are carrying out some form of “nautical evolution” such as setting or taking in sail, which you are quite likely to do in that spot. I haven’t gone aground there yet, but I have given myself several good scares.

 

[Juan Twothree]

I have read a quote “there are two types of East Coast Sailor, either have run-a-ground or going to.”

i am in the former group now but on a rising tide so put anchor out and cooked lunch, lifted anchor and headed home (hence always turn on depth alarm.)

I'm not sure that going aground on a rising tide actually counts.

More effort needed! ?

 

[fredrussell]

Berthed at Shotley (bottom of Orwell). Draw 2.01m. No problems. ..

Can you get in the lock on a very low springs/LAT? Someone was telling me the other day deeper keel boats won’t get in. Sounded odd to me.

 

[dolabriform]

Can you get in the lock on a very low springs/LAT? Someone was telling me the other day deeper keel boats won’t get in. Sounded odd to me.

At really low springs I've been unable to get out for about an hour either side of low water, 2m draft

 

[Stork_III]

Can you get in the lock on a very low springs/LAT? Someone was telling me the other day deeper keel boats won’t get in. Sounded odd to me.

Channel is dredged to 2m below LAT. I did once hit the outer sill on entry, nominal 1.85m keel. Some internal areas are shallow 2m ish.

 

[fredrussell]

Well that’s surprising. Were cruising boat’s drafts generally less when the lock was built I wonder?

 

[Kukri]

Given my boat’s draft, I have checked with every marina in Essex and Suffolk and two metres is the magic number to which they are all (officially) dredged.

 

[Kukri]

There are in fact five types of grounding in our waters:

1. In a river, rising tide: Does Not Count
2. In a river, falling tide: Collect Wooden Spoon
3. Deben or Alde bar, fine weather, rising tide: Scary but you usually just scrunch through a couple of inches of shingle.
4. Offshore bank, fine weather, rising tide. Feels like hitting concrete. There is a loud bang as you hit, followed by more as you are lifted and dropped by the swell; you scare yourself silly and may not admit to having done it for several years.
5. Offshore bank or river bar, falling tide, poor weather: Lifeboat.

I have done the first four.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Well that’s surprising. Were cruising boat’s drafts generally less when the lock was built I wonder?

If I understand correctly the Bar is set to maintain enough water level inside the Harbour to keep the Boats already inside actually afloat

 

[Tranona]

My father moved to Gozo in 1989 to build a modified Griffiths' design in steel. It was a Francis Drake 37 that he 'stretched' by 10ft, added a bowsprit and made her ketch-rigged. She was a liveaboard and took him and his wife all over the Med before crossing to explore the Caribbean. They sailed down to Patagonia before ending-up in Florida. She had the typical triple keels and hard chines and didn't really go to windward at all but was a surprisingly good blue water boat. I'd always thought his choice bonkers and very different from the Rival 34 that he had in the 70s but I was wrong. Stall Turn was a great boat and since they were liveaboards there was no hurry to get anywhere fast. The adage that it is better to travel in hope rather than to arrive certainly applied!

Thanks for that. I know Terry Erskine moved to Malta and built some steel boats there after the Golden Hind business dried up. He also built a few 39' stretched versions of the GH in steel - I went on the first one in about 1979 - it was a bit like a tube train inside. There was always a tendency to stretch the length but not increase the beam - it happened with the GH as well which started at 28'6"" with an 8'6" beam which was about right, but then to 31 with only a further 6" increase. The change to double chine which MG drew increased volume and displacement, but it would still have been better with a bit more beam, particularly aft. My boat is parked next to a Hartwells single chine 31 and the difference is very obvious. There was a part complete steel 39 sitting in a yard in Hayling Island from the mid 1980's up to about 3 years ago. I looked at it briefly but it was far too much work. Seems to have found a new owner though.

MG was very busy in the 60s and 70's in the heyday of home building both in steel and ferro and the very nature of his simple construction methods meant it was easy for builders to indulge their whims, but as you say some really good boats resulted which enabled many people to follow their dreams.

 

[Major_Clanger]

Thanks for that. I know Terry Erskine moved to Malta and built some steel boats there after the Golden Hind business dried up. He also built a few 39' stretched versions of the GH in steel - I went on the first one in about 1979 - it was a bit like a tube train inside. There was always a tendency to stretch the length but not increase the beam - it happened with the GH as well which started at 28'6"" with an 8'6" beam which was about right, but then to 31 with only a further 6" increase. The change to double chine which MG drew increased volume and displacement, but it would still have been better with a bit more beam, particularly aft. My boat is parked next to a Hartwells single chine 31 and the difference is very obvious. There was a part complete steel 39 sitting in a yard in Hayling Island from the mid 1980's up to about 3 years ago. I looked at it briefly but it was far too much work. Seems to have found a new owner though.

MG was very busy in the 60s and 70's in the heyday of home building both in steel and ferro and the very nature of his simple construction methods meant it was easy for builders to indulge their whims, but as you say some really good boats resulted which enabled many people to follow their dreams.

It was Terry who built the hull. I think his business in Wadebridge was struggling so upped-sticks and started afresh in Gozo. He made a pretty fair job of the hull from what I can remember.

 

[spottydog]

My Sparkman & Stephens draws 2.4m when required, but as it was built to live on the east coast can reduce that to 1.2m when necessary. My thanks to a clever and resourceful man, now sadly departed, who asked Aquafibre of Brundall to lay up a one off for him.

 

[Daydream believer]

I have a Moody 31 with a 1.6m fin keel. Obviously, I can't go places where I expect to go aground deliberately, but I've never found it a constraint otherwise. But I have little interest in muddy creeks; I'd relocate back to the West coast of Scotland in a flash if I felt the logistics worked out!

I tend to agree with that. Once you have been up one muddy creek you have been up them all. One cannot see much when anchored up some of these creeks at LW other than a muddy bank with grass on the top. I really wonder what there is for kids when they get away from marinas etc. Exploring marshy fields so the dog can have a dump is not that exciting; neither is washing the mud of your decks & dinghy when returning from a shore side trip.
I would put the ability to make headway upwind important in the east coast. ie. The Wallet can be choppy & if one gets caught against the tide, a poor performing yacht will either mean turning back or an extended trip- not always good. More so with a family. The OP will not always want to stay in the Orwell. There are other places to go & whilst tide height is an important factor, so is ease of handling & windward ability.

I know the OP is not looking for a bilge keeler, but whilst on the subject of shallow draft I make the following comment
Sailors on the forum talk about needing bilge keels to sneak over sand banks, but I cannot help wondering how many would actually sail across the Sunk in F5 with less than a metre below the keel. I watched a friend of mine run aground in his bilge keeler & it tripped right over the bilge keel, so the boat laid on its side at 160 degrees. He was lucky not to have been thrown out of the boat. It did not sit upright. Fortunately a big wave tipped the boat back onto both keels. If the boat had blown sideways a bit it would have been curtains.
If he had been in a fin it would have also touched, but a fin keel boat has a far better chance of motoring off.
I do not find my 1.800 draft a hinderance & if I had a new boat I would not think 2.00 would be an issue . There are a few East Coast tidal gates, ( my marina for one) but one can always play the tides & a boat that performs well makes it easier to meet the programmed times.

 

[fredrussell]

…I would put the ability to make headway upwind important in the east coast. ie. The Wallet can be choppy & if one gets caught against the tide, a poor performing yacht will either mean turning back or an extended trip- not always good.

Or one could just turn the engine on I suppose. Not always good to rely on the engine though, to be fair.

 

[Daydream believer]

Or one could just turn the engine on I suppose. Not always good to rely on the engine though, to be fair.

& there was me thinking that this was the East Coast forum. Not the Motor Boat Forum

 

[dolabriform]

Or one could just turn the engine on I suppose. Not always good to rely on the engine though, to be fair.

I turned the engine on in the wallet, wind over tide, hobby horsing all the way. That's how I discovered there was crud in the tank, when the hobby horsing stirred it all up and the engine went bang bang no more

 

[ex-Gladys]

Gentlemen don't sail to windward...