Submarines - where??

I've asked submariner forumites before, and been told that leaving the depthsounder on might well help - shouldn't be a big battery drain with modern LCD jobs - but an engine is easier to pick up.

In about 1987 we were crossing the Channel from Needles to Guernsey in my Carter 30, flat calm so motoring, and there was obviously a big NATO exercise on with warships of various nations in the distance.

A German destroyer suddenly turned our way at high speed, launching her helo, and came close enough that my very experienced crew grabbed the VHF without asking, " Warship Foxtrot 27 this is yacht Avalon ahead of you sail no X, what are your intentions ? "

No reply, presumably radio silence for the exercise ( or ' sod the Tommies '...) then she came to a very abrupt stop, and the helo dropped a dipping sonar.

I hadn't read any Tom Clancy * then but even I could work out the ship was doing ' sprint & drift ' sonar search for a sub, as was the helo.

* Recommend ' Red Storm Rising ', IMO much better than ' Hunt For Red October '

I asked John to turn the depthsounder on - we were roughly mid-Channel - and sure enough it read " 60 fathoms,60, 60, 20, 20 20, 60 60...

Presumably some smartarse sub driver had heard our little Volvo thrashing away and hid under us thumbing his nose at the Klingons - sorry, Germans.

I suspect in a real war we might have been removed from the equation, probably in several directions all at once...
 
That's what they told me at the time; 1969 or thereabouts, maybe they exaggerated ( I do remember an "official" visit to the school with a police presence after the TV programme though !) I do know at least one of the team had summer placements with the MOD each year and were subesequently sponsored through their University physics degree course with a job at the end of it. Maybe they came across something which wasn't part of the "open" secret !
 
johnalison said:
Many years ago there was some comment about subs in YM. I think the advice was that a sub would normally be aware of a yacht if it had an echo sounder in operation.
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Yes, I think the standard advice for yachts under way in active submarine exercise areas is if you are not running your engine make sure your sounder is turned on. May not be foolproof but will at least increase the chances of your being noticed.
 
Sounds to me that if the Russians want to watch one of our subs they do not need latest technology.
They buy a Coribee, sail about un noticed with no engine or depth sounder & our subs will not have a clue where they are
£1.5 billion of technology beaten by a £ 1K sailing boat-- sounds about right for our navy
If the Russians then move up to an Anderson 22 speed machine, our subs will never get away
 
There was a suggestion a few years ago that NATO deployed a ' Watcher Fleet ' of extremely quiet ( maybe electically powered for stealth mode ) grp pretend fishing boats with all the latest sonar gear, presumably including towed arrays.

If I was a boss in NATO, that's certainly what I'd do, though they'd be very vulnerable in a shooting war.

Even in WWII some British MTB's and American PT Boats had quiet ' crawler engines ' for low speed stealth, but that was mainly for simple noise above the surface.
 
Topcat47 said:
Subs are most definitely NOT on AIS. I doubt if they'd transmit even if they were fitted when they were on the surface.

AIS is line of sight radio frequency transmission; Subs tend to use ELF (Extremely Low Frequency) carrier waves for communications as VHF doesn't have much range through water. They come to "periscope depth" inn order to use satcoms.

You just have to trust that their sonar will warn them of your presence on the surface, although there are more than a few fishermen who's express doubts about that.
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Necroingthis, because this guy is1000% wrong. Subs 100% DO use AIS via antenna buoys. This is actually regular practice in military circles. It's not even unusual.
 
Many moons ago thee lookout drew the skippers attention to what looked like a sinking fishing boat . We altered course and slowed down as we headed towards the casualty. Most odd looking and a few crew visible. Suddenly and from nowhere a USA Orion aircraft crosses our bow almost touching the waves and wiggling it's wings . We looked again at the sinking fishing boat which was now slowly moving an realised it was a submarine sitting with its hull fully submerged so not much visible .

Maybe it was collecting the mail from home or something. It was a pre nuclear boat so a relatively small conning tower with a couple periscopes

Some years ago Arnold Clarks Drum was out in The Clyde and a periscope was spotted. They tried to avoid it but damage was done as it brurushed along the hull.

The cost of a new periscope was eye-watering .
 
HM warships seldom transmit AIS. When they do it is usually a generic "Royal Navy Warship". Submarines never transmit, but in Clyde waters if you see a cluster of tugboats on your plotter you can bet there's a sub in the middle of them. If you're in their way a friendly rib will come alongside and politely ask that you bugger off out of the buoyed channel. Don't argue with them or they will cease to be friendly and polite. In deeper waters off the west coast keep your echo sounder on. They will hear you.
 
Some years ago, I was night sailing back from Cherbourg in my old Folkdancer. It only had a 50 Ah battery, so I tended to keep the nav lights off until I saw something. Just off St Caths, I got the idea that I could see an area that was darker than expected to port. I switched on the lights - to be greeted with another set of lights and the loom of a sub. I often wonder if they were a bit peed off because I spotted them!
 
Bilgediver said:
Many moons ago thee lookout drew the skippers attention to what looked like a sinking fishing boat . We altered course and slowed down as we headed towards the casualty. Most odd looking and a few crew visible. Suddenly and from nowhere a USA Orion aircraft crosses our bow almost touching the waves and wiggling it's wings . We looked again at the sinking fishing boat which was now slowly moving an realised it was a submarine sitting with its hull fully submerged so not much visible .

Maybe it was collecting the mail from home or something. It was a pre nuclear boat so a relatively small conning tower with a couple periscopes

Some years ago Arnold Clarks Drum was out in The Clyde and a periscope was spotted. They tried to avoid it but damage was done as it brurushed along the hull.

The cost of a new periscope was eye-watering .
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Did you follow his instructions?
 
Only just realised this is an old thread; amazing how they pop up again at times.

I used to love seeing subs on the surface during daylight; so different from usual vessels.

I have no expertise but would think via any common sense I may have that military vessels would not use AIS transmission unless they wanted to be seen (in areas of high traffic perhaps or if not on exercise and near a trawler).

Are the stories of trawlers catching their nets upon subs and sinking correct or myths? Sub commanders are supposed to be the elite, so I would suspect it to be a myth or tabloid news.

Am I correct in thinking they were or are called the “Silent” or was it “Secret” “Service”?

Reminds me of the book and film called Das Boot from many years ago.
 
Cerebus said:
Are the stories of trawlers catching their nets upon subs and sinking correct or myths? Sub commanders are supposed to be the elite, so I would suspect it to be a myth or tabloid news.
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Not a myth. The first boat I served on was HM s/m Grampus (pennant number S04 same as my forum name!). A little before I joined her she was caught in the nets of a French trawler the Fomalhaut, luckily there was no loss of life or vessel. In a later tragic incident a Scottish trawler the Antares was sunk in such an encounter.
 
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FV Antares was dragged under in the Loch Fyne area, near Arran. Loss of life, when a sub caught the nets and pulled Antares backwards. The incident resulted in changes to how submarine training is notified to the public.

I was sailing in the area when it happened and later when the Antares was raised. Not a nice day, both of them.

FV Antares - Wikipedia
 
I noticed that when Prince of Wales was about to enter Rosyth last time, she was transmitting on AIS - but using the name of one of the RFAs (can't remember which). That was on my AIS but i also checked on Marine Traffic. After locking in and presumably turning off their AIS the position of the RFA on Marine Traffic showed the military port near Southampton. The following day i checked my AIS and she'd disappeared. Don't believe everything you see on screen!
 
chrisclin said:
I noticed that when Prince of Wales was about to enter Rosyth last time, she was transmitting on AIS - but using the name of one of the RFAs (can't remember which). That was on my AIS but i also checked on Marine Traffic. After locking in and presumably turning off their AIS the position of the RFA on Marine Traffic showed the military port near Southampton. The following day i checked my AIS and she'd disappeared. Don't believe everything you see on screen!
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No the RN and RFA use the same generic number (sometimes) so that is actually your receiver and marine traffic remembering the last vessel it was used on (and forgot to change the name).
 
Sub Inner sound .JPG

Yes, you do see Submarines, quite frequently, especially during NATO exercises, like joint warrior, which happens every spring off the NW of Scotland. You also see them around the range in the Inner Sound of Raasay.
I fairly sure that they will hear work diesel engine thumping away, I'd be a lot less sure that they'd hear a 200kHz echo sounder, my guess is that 200kHz attenuates quite quickly and they are listening, in general, for much lower frequencies, which propagate much further.
My experience, when I've inadvertently got to close to them, is that they are generally indifferent to Yachts. Except when submarines are leaving Gare Loch, especially going through the narrows, when the men in the black RIB, dressed in black with automatic weapons are far from reasonable.
The range in the Inner Sound, broadcast on VHF when the range is active, and if you are sailing in the middle of the range they call you on the VHF (if you transmitting your position) or they will send a RIB out and ask you, (politely) to keep to the sides of the Sound.
When joint warrior is in progress they will jam SatNav, but you do get VHF warning about when it will be jammed.
Over the years I've been sailing NW Scotland I've been asked by the MOD multiple times , what are you intensions, and advised about thing like live firing and submarine trials. I've also been buzzed by very low flying jets, so low that I could wave to the pilot, and tailed by helicopters.
 
I saw my first one off the coast of Cornwall.

I spent a while wondering why and what it could be doing and did come to any conclusions !
 
subguyK149 said:
Necroingthis, because this guy is1000% wrong. Subs 100% DO use AIS via antenna buoys. This is actually regular practice in military circles. It's not even unusual.
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As a retired submariner and active yottie who responded to the 'Antares' tragedy I've a wee bit of experience in the matter. In a nutshell, the OP should not worry in the slightest - unless he decides to put out trawl nets behind his boat without a pinger! The above quote gave me the best laugh of the day; how 'subguy' thinks a submarine is going to tow a buoy at the range of depths and speeds they operate in is beyond parody.
 
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