[70521]
Well-Known Member
More than is normal. A change of from a packed gland to a Radice seal will sort that problem.
Stuck seacock
- Thread starter MagicalArmchair
- Start date
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The cause of the stiffness is almost certainly buildup of deposits on the ball because of lack of regular operation. Nothing to do with whether it is DZR, brass or bronze - the internals are essentially the same. A nickel plated ball running in a Teflon insert (some newer ones have stainless balls). If you leave them closed, deposits build up on the seaward side of the ball and stops the ball from turning. If you leave them open the deposits build up on the edge of the opening in the ball - and stop the ball from turning. The only cure is to operate them regularly (and leave them open) to stop the build up of deposits.
Freeing them is difficult because you can't get at where the deposits are so force on the lever to get the ball moving is really the only thing you can do short of taking the valve off and cleaning the seaward side. A newish valve like this one is pretty robust and can withstand a good bit of effort on the lever to get it moving.
The 90 degree bend is really not a problem with a 1 1/2" outlet from a holding tank. Unlike an intake there is no chance of the through hull getting blocked from the seaward side and any blockage because of sewage will likely have happened further upstream in the tank. The way to use a gravity tank is to leave it open all the time except when you want to hold waste before discharging at sea or pump out. Minimise the amount of time waste is held, empty it flush through with fresh water and leave the valve open. If there is no tank and it is straight from the toilet to the outlet, the same principles apply. Flush through with fresh water when leaving the boat and leave the valve open. Operate it every time you use the boat to reduce the chance of build up of deposits.
Freeing them is difficult because you can't get at where the deposits are so force on the lever to get the ball moving is really the only thing you can do short of taking the valve off and cleaning the seaward side. A newish valve like this one is pretty robust and can withstand a good bit of effort on the lever to get it moving.
The 90 degree bend is really not a problem with a 1 1/2" outlet from a holding tank. Unlike an intake there is no chance of the through hull getting blocked from the seaward side and any blockage because of sewage will likely have happened further upstream in the tank. The way to use a gravity tank is to leave it open all the time except when you want to hold waste before discharging at sea or pump out. Minimise the amount of time waste is held, empty it flush through with fresh water and leave the valve open. If there is no tank and it is straight from the toilet to the outlet, the same principles apply. Flush through with fresh water when leaving the boat and leave the valve open. Operate it every time you use the boat to reduce the chance of build up of deposits.
KevinV
Well-Known Member
This - the handle in the picture has already been bent to and fro. Much better to get a spanner on it.
I would certainly loosen the gland nut, but would be careful with penetrating oil - you don't know what rubber the gland is made of and it might expand in the presence of solvent, making the valve harder to move next time. Red rubber grease is your friend, vaseline if it's all you've got.
My guess is that the gland has always been too tight, they should only-just-not-leak, but people have the tendency to tighten them up.
If it was my boat I'd take the handle off, ease the gland right off, get a good dab of RR grease in there, snug it back up - this should force grease into the gland/ spindle interface. Then put a large (good!) adjustable spanner on the spindle and, bracing the seacock, put a small amount of pressure on the spanner then tap it gently near the centre. Softly softly catchy monkey - tapping is less likely to shear anything than applying excessive leverage would, and will help knock deposits loose. When it's starts moving go two steps forward one step back to allow crud to fall away.
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Laysula
Well-Known Member
Dry yourself out against a wall and replace the whole lot with a true design set up. Hitting it with a hammer runs the risk of breaking the seacock or fitting leaving you in a whole heap of trouble. Fix it properly and go off and enjoy your sailing with confidence.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
But the OP did say he was going to replace the seacock anyway so.
But looking more closely at the sectioned drawing of the seacock (not easy on a mobile!), it becomes apparent that the gland is not a packed gland but relies on an o-ring to seal. In which case, can it be overtightened? Surely the gland nut is simply screwed in as far as it will go?
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KevinV
Well-Known Member
I know he said he's replacing it anyway, but I can't see the point when it's just stuck - not rotted out, not fit for the bin, just stuck.
Fair comment about the drawing (indeed not easy to see), but it still looks as if there could be friction between the body and the o-ring, or the ptfe cone could be overtight - it has to be worth a try. I know some people have money to throw away but I'm just not used to thinking like that - I like fixing things.
[70521]
Well-Known Member
Looks like we will be going in on the same set of springs.
I wish that I had only 13 weeks on the hard! It has been well over a year. One chap said he would do it, but had not done it before, then vanished into thin air. I would rather he said, 'Sorry Sandy I am not really happy doing this job'. My summer visiting the west of Scotland was abandoned, but I am looking forward to decent coffee and croissants when I visit the mainland. If I remember what bit of string to pull.
Dellquay13
Well-Known Member
My spring visit to SW Ireland has been put back to next year now, and the Puffins will have left Skomer for the summer feeding grounds, the natural waypoints of the sailing year have slowly crept by uncelebrated.
I can’t fault the work done on the stern tube though, it was worth waiting for the engineer of choice, an ex boat builder from Pirate Boats.
graham
Well-Known Member
I would take the handle off and use a slightly longer spanner to turn it. If it still doesnt budge then leave it until lift out.
It may not move fully straight away but need a tiny back and forth movement to clear away the crud bit by bit.
It may not move fully straight away but need a tiny back and forth movement to clear away the crud bit by bit.
Rock Dodger
Well-Known Member
Hi MA, I had a problem with "stuck" ball valves. There is only so much brute force they will accept before they bend, break split or round off the flats on the spindle. I have fixed a similar situation to yours with the use of a hair dryer at close range. This heated the body of the valve up so that is was almost too hot to touch, however, the different metals inside expanded at different rates and the mechanism came free. I have used this technique successfully when removing valves that had become set in the hull. The reverse also applied as the "warm" valve could be screwed easily in to the skin fitting and as it regained ambient temperature the threaded portion became tighter. The dryer I used was a small travel type job which my daughter in law left behind after a visit. I got the greasy fingerprints off and next time she visits she won't know the difference.Due to the "propeller coming adrift" adventure on our last week long cruise, I've not been to visit Mirage as much as I'd like as she is a couple of hours away. On my last visit, I worked all the seacocks.... apart from the aft heads outlet that appears to be stuck!
It has always been a bit tight (when I purchased the boat I was concerned, as this head had been used for storage, it was truly stuck, but with some persuasion it came free), and this just happens to be the only seacock and skinfitting that has been changed by the previous owner (it's on the boat "todo" list to replace all skin fittings).
It looks to be of good quality, and dezincification resistant (I read the DR there)
Previously when its been a bit jammed, I have tugged it a bit harder, and it would free up... I feel this time I would need to apply extra leverage to get it to move. Is this a great idea? Or wait for lift out and inject some rydlymn up it and then replace with the rest.
Edit: It appears to be one these:
Aquafax Isis DZR Brass Ball Valve - Fox's Chandlery (what documents I can find here:
https://www.specifiedby.com/relianc...s-with-t-handle_specifications_1_b84903c6.pdf)
Iliade
Well-Known Member
I'd try slowly pouring a kettle of boiling water over the valve body too.
Windygo
New Member
Free it up and service or replace?
Due to lift out in the autumn and facing a stuck valve - the one that opens the heads to the sea, (fortunately the valve to the holding tank works). The handle corroded and came free in my hand, and the valve is seized (boat new to me) lots of corrosion around it, would you go straight for replacing or how might the stuck valve be rescued? the fittings come through the bulkhead in the back of the heads compartment which makes them convenient and obvious - but changing the stuck valve is likely to mean replacing the stack. To add to this there is a small extender tube so that in the heads there is a largish handle to make open/closed easy - but I can’t find the manufacturer and haven’t found equivalent online.
The through-hull itself appears fine, but is the consensus that it should be changed or at least removed and re-seated if everything above it has been waggled about?
Due to lift out in the autumn and facing a stuck valve - the one that opens the heads to the sea, (fortunately the valve to the holding tank works). The handle corroded and came free in my hand, and the valve is seized (boat new to me) lots of corrosion around it, would you go straight for replacing or how might the stuck valve be rescued? the fittings come through the bulkhead in the back of the heads compartment which makes them convenient and obvious - but changing the stuck valve is likely to mean replacing the stack. To add to this there is a small extender tube so that in the heads there is a largish handle to make open/closed easy - but I can’t find the manufacturer and haven’t found equivalent online.
The through-hull itself appears fine, but is the consensus that it should be changed or at least removed and re-seated if everything above it has been waggled about?
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roaringgirl
Well-Known Member
The expensive part of the replacement job is the haulout. Once the boat is out of the water, if you're in any doubt, just replace the whole stack and the through hull.
Bouba
Well-Known Member
I agree about using True Design....but I wouldn’t do it between tides....took me ages to remove the old through hull....take the boat out the water
roaringgirl
Well-Known Member
Meh - if you're against the wall running out of time, stick a bung in it and wait for the next tide.
Bouba
Well-Known Member
If you are cutting out the through hull and it comes out cleanly, then a bung will fit nicely....if the through hull is stubborn and only comes out bit by bit..making a good water tight seal might be trickier. Anyhow, half the problem (I found) was having to keep going home to my workshop when I realized I needed another tool.
In theory it’s a quick, clean, painless process removing the old fitting and replacing the new one....but your first one might be your learning experience
roaringgirl
Well-Known Member
Tool list:
Angle grinder
Dremel
Reciprocating tongue-cutter
Large screwdriver
Mallet
Water-pump pliers
Pipe grips
Wire brush
Round file
3M 5200 or equivalent
Swear jar
Iliade
Well-Known Member
The valve body looks immaculate; can you not try all the heating advice from earlier in the thread? It is possibly not so much seized as calcified into place, so another ooption could be to plug the outlet and apply descaler in some quantity.
boatmike
Well-Known Member
sensible answer cap'n! The handles fitted are fairly fragile and hitting with an' ammer will only bend or break it. A good fitting spanner will give more leverage and should enable you to "work" it free with a bit of welly.....
James_Calvert
Well-Known Member
Couple of comments:
Suggestion of applying heat won't work particularly well whilst the boat is in the water.
Likewise I can't see how you might introduce something to dissolve the crud jamming it, which is most likely on the seaward side, whilst still afloat.
So you're left with the various purely mechanical options. Love to know what eventually works for you. I have similar ball valves, not jammed as yet...
Suggestion of applying heat won't work particularly well whilst the boat is in the water.
Likewise I can't see how you might introduce something to dissolve the crud jamming it, which is most likely on the seaward side, whilst still afloat.
So you're left with the various purely mechanical options. Love to know what eventually works for you. I have similar ball valves, not jammed as yet...
