Strobe lights- a mariners request.

[Cornishman]

May I respectfully suggest that you read your Highway Code regularly?
This is the relevant para re hazard warning lights
"116

Hazard warning lights. These may be used when your vehicle is stationary, to warn that it is temporarily obstructing traffic. Never use them as an excuse for dangerous or illegal parking. You MUST NOT use hazard warning lights while driving or being towed unless you are on a motorway or unrestricted dual carriageway and you need to warn drivers behind you of a hazard or obstruction ahead. Only use them for long enough to ensure that your warning has been observed.

[Law RVLR reg 27]"

 

[jimbaerselman]

[ QUOTE ]
Strobes are also pretty effective at destroying the night vision of helo crews, and can actually cause serious injury if they're using image intensifiers.

[/ QUOTE ] Those are pretty heavy statements, possibly true in extreme cases.

But SAR crews can easily control their exposure to any likely night vision threats from strobes. A distant strobe is usually first detected through peripheral vision before it's a threat, and then only produces (at worst) a pinpoint gap in night vision. From then on, one avoids directly looking at it. Think yotties and lighthouses . . . or N cardinals, if you prefer.

And then, most aircraft (helos too) carry powerful strobes. And I'm very surprised to hear that image intensifiers (if you were using one to look directly at a threat) have developed output power sufficiently to seriously damage the user. Sounds like a dangerous design - a good way to fox the night viewers - crack a few hundreds of candlepower at them and watch them fall down . . .

Night vision effects and threats are often over-stated - for instance, given as a reason for not shining an x candlepower light at a distant ship bridge. With a little experience, one rapidly learns to protect night vision when it's necessary. As I guess you probably know.

In spite of which comments, I do not approve the use of strobes, since a high intensity white light can achieve the same results, and stay within colregs.

 

[Cornishman]

Surely shall be avoided is imperative?
That is what we taught MN cadets before they stood before the examiner for their second mates ticket, as well as taking their ONC, OND or HND certificates in Nautical Studies. It is also what was generally agreed at meetings of Yachtmaster Examiners I attended over a period of some 30 years when this thorny old subject was discussed.

 

[Beadle]

If the point of a strobe is that it has a greater range than nav lights its not going to be much use as an anti-collision device.

You normally have to be fairly close to something to collide with it.

 

[chanelyacht]

Hi Jim,

Yes, you're largely right, but for the purposes of giving some clear guidance to leisure users at sea, I'll stick by the idea of please don't use the things.

Strobes placed on helos are either under or behind the cabin, so it's only peripheral light from those sources. The type of strobe on beacons or epirbs are pretty small by comparison with a main powered one.

Yes, they can be compensated for, but in a SAR situation its one extra thing we'd rather not worry about. (Incidentally, it's also the reason that HMCG don't fit strobe blues to their vehicles, as they're often used for helo site marking or spotting).

 

[Loginname]

but I don't have DSC and don't particularly want it. Would I still be legal? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

More seriously; the earlier comment about Chopper pilots, if it is correct, would concern me with this suggestion.

 

[whipper_snapper]

Thanks, I had not realised that I am explicitly permitted to use them for precisely the circumstances I described.


unless you are on a motorway or unrestricted dual carriageway and you need to warn drivers behind you of a hazard or obstruction ahead.

 

[Salty John]

I think the statement 'is to be avoided' was carefully chosen to mean exactly what it does mean: If you can avoid it, do.
Otherwise it would have said 'is prohibited'. I have great faith in the Colregs, I believe they mean what they say.
But the point of my post was that if you want to be identified in specific circumstances a strobe at the masthead might be a good idea - the use of strobes on lifejackets suggesting they are good for being spotted easily.
I don't support changing the Colregs to allow a masthead strobe in place of current light requirements. I do support the use of a strobe to bring attention to yourself - the step before using a flare, perhaps.

 

[absit_omen]

You don't have DSC radio so you don't have a strobe - your choice.

Don't get rescued. See if I care /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[AngusMcDoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Strobes placed on helos are either under or behind the cabin, so it's only peripheral light from those sources. The type of strobe on beacons or epirbs are pretty small by comparison with a main powered one.


[/ QUOTE ]

And the powerful strobe is switched off in the dark when near or on the ground, leaving a weeny one to continue. Other nearby pilots or ground crew can be dazzled by the full strength strobe otherwise. If a pilot maneuvres around an apron in the dark with the full power strobe going, he can expect the ground handler to be in a bit of a grump. They are seriously bright!

 

[bilbobaggins]

If peeps look closely, they will perhaps see that - in addition to red/green/white navigation lights - most aircraft cleared for night operations are equipped with high-intensity flashing strobes, and use them. So also are tall obstacles such as Canary Wharf, the Post Office Tower, the Chimney at Fawley, and big masts such as Mendip and Wenvoe. Could it possibly be because the aviation authorities want them seen?

FWIW, and many moons ago, I had to navigate a Puma helo at night - with a very sick child on board - to a landing site close to Great Ormond Street Hospital. It was a darkened garden-square, with trees around, and from 1000' over that part of London, there are dozens of 'em. DECCA was not precise enough; eyeball wasn't sure enough. It was only when some switched-on copper below, part of the safety cordon, realised our difficulty and switched on his blue car-top strobe that we were able to 'PosIdent' the right garden and land.

Good copper! Clever copper.....! Have a biscuit....!

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[bilbobaggins]

[ QUOTE ]
They are seriously bright!

[/ QUOTE ]

Wot? Ground handlers? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Allan]

I have read through this thread and some before on similar subjects. On my next boat I plan to have a strobe at or near the masthead. It will be control by a covered push button reachable from the helm. I believe this is within the Col regs as I will continue to use whatever seamanship I can to avoid the need to use it.
I have used my hazard lights a few times, when I am stopped to warn following drivers of that fact. When I am sure they have seen me, I turn them off and hope the other driver puts his on to stop him being pushed into me.
Allan

 

[AngusMcDoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Wot? Ground handlers?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they're seriously grumpy most of the time /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[Shorn100]

Yes Cornisman's post seems to clarify that that's the Highway Code recommendation.

That's good, I was getting worried I was doing something wrong to warn following traffic that there was an obstruction in the lane - namely me!

Shorn - apparently another Numpty!

PS - if fitting a strobe, which I'm not, what colour should it be?

Yellow - hovercraft and subs
Blue - police and SAR and other emergency services
White - could be confused with a North cardinal
Red - a mal-functioning lateral mark
Green - same as red

 

[absit_omen]

Careful!

You are starting to bring common sense into the equation (which I thought I was). We should know better than to challenge ColRegs or the Highway Code. No matter how many lives saved or pile ups prevented we should not err from the written word!

 

[wotayottie]

Best thing would be a multicoloured one - that way there's no confusion. Red and blue like US cop cars maybe?

In the end, the purpose would be to say "there's somerthing here you dope - look out of the window / look at your radar/ look at your charts etc and decide what you need to do" and you use it cos the nav lights have not been seen. So I'm not worried about the confusion argument - does it really matter what the tramp captain thinks he is avoiding as long as he avoids it?

When the choice is between breaking some law or getting sunk by an anonymous tramp steamer, I know which I would do.

Night vision - what do you think that the white flare would do?

 

[Robin2]

In my humble opinion this thread has missed the most important issue - which is that strobes should become the legal requirement for navigation lights on all vessels.

I can't recall seeing a lighted merchant ship at night on which I could see the red or green nav lights against the background clutter of house lighting.

The aviation industry figured out many years ago that if you want an unexpected object to be noticed you need a flashing, rather than a steady light.

There is a HUGE difference between being able to see a light, and noticing a light. I have little doubt that the Ouzo disaster would have been avoided if it had been carrying a strobe.

It would be a simple matter to modify the Colregs (simple, technically - perhaps not so simple politically) so that a particular flashing sequence means Port and a different sequence means Starboard.

Now on the most important question - Where can I buy a strobe at a reasonable price?

 

[Cornishman]

[ QUOTE ]
does it really matter what the tramp captain thinks he is avoiding as long as he avoids it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately there have been occasions when inquisitive masters have gone to look at just what that strange light could be, with the inevitable consequence.
If it's a light he can identify he is more likely to steer clear.

 

[Robin]

I think from all this that the only sensible answers are those clearly set out in the pages of the Colregs from people who have given this deep and careful thought over many years.

It appears too that there are some people that get so paranoid nervous out there at night that perhaps should stay in harbour after dark? I will now duck.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't recall seeing a lighted merchant ship at night on which I could see the red or green nav lights against the background clutter of house lighting

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer to cross shipping lanes at night, because the ship's direction and angle of approach is much clearer to see than in daylight. Indeed some modern ships with forward bridges seem to create an optical illusion and in daylight can appear to go the opposite way to what they actually are. So I have little trouble differentiating ship lights at night, initially their aspect shows by the mast lights, then the port/starboard lights, and when bows on are easy to see with mast lights dead in line. Very occasionally I might use binos to pick out the red/greens and very very rarely do I get into a situation where the steamer scarer on the sails is needed. I'm not cleverer than anyone else, it is not that difficult - with practice. The ones that are difficult to determine at night are fishing boats with huge deck floods that can point every which way, which also describes their route through the water!

Still ducking.....