Storm Sails

[feef]

I have a Bavaria 37 (could not afford a decent Fisher 34/37!!)with Selden roller gen and roller main. I don't plan to be out in a storm but I wish to have an sail or two as a back-up. I have bought a storm jib with luff sleeve to be hoisted over the furled genoa. THe necessary extra sheave and halyard will be installed in the near future. I may also buy a storm trisail to be hoisted in the extra luff groove to port of the roller main slot.I would appreciate advice and comments on storm sails in general. I do not know how good -or bad- the Bav is yet so I don't want advice on the boat itself, just on a prudent way to equip with contingency sails. Some say that the storm jib is all that is needed and not to bother with the trisail at all.
Grateful for any inputs on the subject.

 

[Talbot]

IMHO the storm sail that hoists on a tube over the genoa is a fudge designed to allow the vessel to claim compliance with code requirements, but not supposed to be used in anger. If you want to really have the ability to set a proper storm sail, then fit a system to enable a temporary forestay to be rigged, or have a storm sail made up with a wire luff, and have a spectra halyard for hoisting it.

try-sail is very boat dependent.

 

[andy_wilson]

I assume it is for private use. I note intention not to need storm sails, but also your high latitude.

Clearly your 2 furling sails will be useless to windward once they are furled down for 30+ knots of wind, but you always have the engine. A baggy furled sail will add stability and you have a workable solution to make to windward with reasonable sailing 'comfort'.

Not knowing the right answer to your question, I would see how the main looks when furled right down. If the rear panels are heavy cloth and you can set it quite flat I would look at a foresail solution first. If the furled main is poor I would add a track and fit a tri-sail first. You could chat with a sail maker and rigger to see if they could cut you a high viz. mini-main that you could outhaul by the boom to give you more sensible rigging and control, but still show minimum sail area for your intended sailing.

As put elswhere, sleeved storm jibs are a nod towards charter requirements in my opinion. They are difficult to deploy once the wind dictates you need them. Short of going for a separate removable forestay with a highfield lever, I get a good set and little luff sag with a spare genoa halyard made of wire, anchored to the stemhead fitting just behind the furling drum. This is sweated up bar tight and my storm jib hanked onto it. The jib also has a wire luff and by sweating this up equally tight I get the desired effect.

Fortunately I have slab reefing with a deep 3rd reef and have no intention of ever needing a storm tri-sail.

 

[roly_voya]

If you have a masthead rig then on a boat this size should be possible to convert to a cutter rig with hanked on staysail - permenantly available storm sail, emergency sail when the furling gear gives up, reinforces rig, allows a smaller and more manageble jib/genoa, improves balance.

I set mine up by getting a big 'u' bolt from seasure with a tang welded to the backing plate bolt to the deck the attach a cain and rigging screw from the dase plate to the front of the keel

 

[feef]

Thank you so far. The storm jib and luff sleeve I have bought is from Arun. It does have a wire luff and wire tack strop so I suppose that it can be used without the sleeve over the roller gen.

The rig is approx 9/10ths -not mast head. I seem to remember on the Selden website they state that an extra forestay can be rigged without the need for another backstay if it is very close (can't remember how close) to the original mast fitting for the roller gen. Still working on the case.....

 

[ChrisE]

We have a removable inner forestay that is attached to the top witihn a foot of the forestay. As you say this does away with the need for additional backstays. Incidently it held the mast up when the forestay failed.

 

[charles_reed]

The best way to go

on most boats is to have an additional (removable) forestay.

From memory, on the Bavaria, you're likely to need a couple of running backstays, 'cos the position you'll have on the mast will be too far from the backstay.

However I've not done that but have the No 3 genoa, replacing the roller genoa on the roller furler.

Watch out for hanks, they too can be a weakness in heavy winds, I remember surfing into Poole Jubilee weekend, from Cherbourg, praying that the higher hanks on my working jib wouldn't have to be replaced by the peices of cord that I'd been having to replace the lower ones as the everted in ascending order.

It's unlikely you'll ever have such a sudden wind-speed increase (even in the adriatic) so one usually has plenty of time to swap.

In fact a 150% genoa is only really good up to F4 to windward and F6 offwind, if I'm making a >25m passage in more than F4, I use the solent, and immobilise the genoa reefing.

Most roller genoas are OK up to about 60% of their unrolled area, after that they're more trouble than they're worth. I've also found that the storm jib is really too large for windward work in over 32 knots true, but the No 3 (really a high-cut spitfire) is ideal 'cos you can carry it from 25 knots upwards and rollit down as windspeeds rise - the most I've ever worked to windward is a mean of 38 knots tho' I have been off wind in 54.

A trysail is seamanlike but trying to rig one when it's really needed is far too dangerous (look at what happened recently off Spurn Head to a crew trying to rig their trysail). I've got a very deep 4th reef which does as well, but does have the major risk of losing the boom (or gooseneck) when it digs into a big sea.

Personally I wouldn't attempt heavy weather sailing in any boat with roller-furling main, the whole contraption is just too slight for real hard work - but great for reducing work for more normal sailing.

Fortunately (for SAR services as well as themselves) the majority of yotties stay safely tucked up if there's any chance of a F6 or more.

 

[melker]

see private message

 

[roly_voya]

Re: The best way to go

"Personally I wouldent attempt heavy weather sailing in any boat
with rolller furling"

This is a very valid point, to gat a boat to work in 30kn+ the whole boat needs to be set up for off-shore which on a light displacement boat may mean upgrading standing & running rig, winches, chainplates etc etc. Even if you do that you are likly to still have a boat that is so uncomfortable the crew cant work her. So perhaps the best advice is to look at what the boat was designed for and stick within it.

 

[Swagman]

Re: The best way to go

[ QUOTE ]

"Personally I wouldent attempt heavy weather sailing in any boat
with rolller furling"

This is a very valid point, to gat a boat to work in 30kn+ the whole boat needs to be set up for off-shore which on a light displacement boat may mean upgrading standing & running rig, winches, chainplates etc etc. Even if you do that you are likly to still have a boat that is so uncomfortable the crew cant work her. So perhaps the best advice is to look at what the boat was designed for and stick within it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but cannot share this view. We learnt to sail in Perth where 25 knots is still seen as a strongish sea breeze - and lots of days well over 30. Most yachts out there racing were of the lighter weight category and no issues.

We've added removable inner forstays and had storm fore and tri sails built to handle heavy stuff on past boats - but in 20+ years and lots of miles never ever had to use them in anger.

I'd suggest (unless you are made of money and have lots of spare space to store added sails) you'll be perfectly equipped with the storm headsail you have. I'd agree with others you should forget the wrap around luff and sweat it up using the wire luff. Plus a third reefing point in the main.

Both the above, supplemented if ever required with your engine, will handle 99.99% of what ever you may encounter if you slip up and find yourself out in a big blow.

Cheers
JOHN

 

[roly_voya]

Re: The best way to go

Sorry did not mean to suggest that light displacement boats are unseaworthy, of course they are not you only have to look at offshore racing to sea that. However the question was about additional equipment for a short handed crew thinking about tackling long sea passages which is very different to a strong race crew reletively close to full port services. Comfort, durability and the ability of the boat to look after herself probably under auto-pilot then become more of a priority.

That aside the main thing I was thinking about was if you start adding gear to extend the capabilities of a boat you need to think about the whole boat and whether you are trying to make her do something she was not designed for. I dont know the boat in question and the answer may well be that it is ok but it might still be a question worth asking even if it only shows up some other stuff that would help as well.

 

[Sea Devil]

Re: The best way to go

I was watching this thread with interest. Have to say I entirely agree with Swagman. I would even go further.

I used to have a heavy storm jib which fitted on an inner - fore-stay which had to be set up (one U bolt) to use.

I have never ever used it in anger. By the time conditions got to the point it was needed it was far to dangerous to go messing around on the foredeck. Apart from that the deeply furled jib worked well and the 3rd reef in the main has frequently been used. I have found this rig - tiny bit of furling head sail and 3 reefs in the main will get me through all conditions to the point where all the sails need to come off and the parachute sea anchor go in!

Should add my sails are heavy long distance cruising ones but that is because I expect to be out in stronger winds more often.

On the few occasions I have had to 'claw' off a lee shore - and there are few of those I do not hesitate to start the engine and motor sail out of it - albeit slowly.

I think the concept of 'storm sails' came in when we all had hank on head sails and the main sail used to be the main driving force. Great days but gone! Thank goodness!

Michael

 

[feef]

Re: The best way to go

Again thanks to all so far. The boat is certified as category A. I thought that meant that the boat and it's rigging is dimensioned to stand up to Ocean Passenges, which I assume includes an occassional gale. I will not intentionally subject myself to more tham F4 but if for some reason I get caught out I want to have somekind of sail set on bord that will help me out while the salt spray is flying past. Tere will allways need to be some sort of compromise here. I can't kit out for Cape Horn or the boat will sink under the extra weight anyway. I read all you inputs with interest, they are helping me to arrive at a 'happy medium' I don't like the idea of having to dump my Luff Sleeve idea and fit a removeable extra forestay but it sounds like I may have to do it. Why do Arun and others offer a luff sleeve system if it probably won't work well?

 

[Salty John]

Re: The best way to go

You make a valid point with which I fully agree: The problem is deploying your chosen storm sail system when conditions are bad enough to require it. A heavy working jib on good quality rollerfurling is probably the best option and would allow you to heave-to, even though it might not allow you to make progress in the required direction. I have had the detachable inner forestay system because I worried (and still do) about a rollerfurling jib coming unwrapped in heavy weather. Also an inner forestay gives the rig some redundancy, but going up there to hank the storm jib on in the teeth of a storm is a bit hairy.
Incidentally, the load (lbs per square foot) on a sail at 50 knots is 6.25 times greater than at 20 knots. So, reefing a light genoa down to storm jib size just doesn't do it - the cloth would not take it. A heavy 100% or 130% jib needs to be on the stay well ahead of the do-do hitting the fan!

 

[Sea Devil]

Re: The best way to go

People sell things that people want. Does not mean they are actually useful. The whole storm jib - trysail is really out of date. Provided you have a quality furling gear on your headsail then I have mine down to just a foot or so out in 50 knots and all 3 reefs in the main. Because I do a lot of long distance sailing the cloth weight of my sail is higher than that supplied on most new boats.

I can only repeat that provided you have 3 reefs for the main and quality headsail furling gear I can see no reason for 'special storm sails'. Bet you never use them for all the reasons stated above. (nothing wrong with carrying a 2nd headsail which is useful for running goose winged before the trades so if you do damage your genoa you have a replacement)

Michael

 

[ChrisE]

Re: The best way to go

Generally, I'd agree with the advice about storm sails, on a minor point however that of setting up storm sails I'd take issue.

If you are going to use a storm sail on a a detachable inner forestay, as we do, you hank the thing on before leaving port and stuff if in it's bag with lines rigged. Then deployment is down to a trip to the foredeck, on your bum if you are like me, to remove the bag and haul the thing up.

In reality we use the same tactics as Michael, again in winds up to 50 knots (fortunately for not too long a period). We have deep 2nd reef and really deep 3rd which we have never used.

 

[charles_reed]

Oh what a shame

F4 is just the start, F5 is a superb working breeze and I've got a mean 11 knots out of a 29'10" LWL boat on a broad reach in an F7 from St David's to Hard Lewis.

I would recommend against going to windward in an F8, the boat is OK, the crew is the weakest link.

 

[charles_reed]

Many would disagree

about the advisability of a parachute anchor.

Personally I'd prefer a series drogue as a much more workmanlike system - but that might be down to brainwashing by the RNLI.

 

[Salty John]

Re: The best way to go

On many boats the detachable forestay cannot be deployed when the roller furling sail on the permanent stay is in use. This is because it runs close to and parallel with the permanent stay. Unless the boat is designed as a cutter adding a forestay further down the mast may require runners.

 

[ChrisE]

Re: The best way to go

You may be right, however on RS both can be used at the same time, albeit with difficulty tacking the foresail around the inner. Mind you, on passage, tacking isn't something we do too often.