storm sail over furled genoa

[Uricanejack]

At the risk of sounding silly.

Once upon a time I used to regard a furling forskine as rather wimpy. Then I sailed with one. Don't like all or nothing hood system. like harken its so easy to furl a bit and let out a bit as the wind changes.

I have more than 1 furling sail. on my little boat.

I have the big one which came with boat and a smaller No 2 I had local sailmaker make for my boat from a used No2 gib from simmillar boat. all he had to do was replace luff with rope luff. I intend to have a No 3 made not got round to it yet.

A no2 furled a bit with 2nd reef boat ballances ok and goes to windward in gale.
over powers a bit and tendancy to round up. If out in a big sea slams down and stops looses ground to lee.

A small no 3 of course I have to get 3rd reef for main at same time.
haven't gone out in F10 recently


I try not to change underway. its relativly simple less than 5min while in dock.

 

[john_morris_uk]

With respect, I wonder whether all those who say 'remove the genoa' have ever been out in really serious winds? As others have said it really is impractical to start unrolling genoas and getting them down when the wind is blowing a proper gale. Claiming you can sail a close reach or 'run off downwind'? You won't manage a close reach as soon as that sail is unrolled (even without any sheeting in at all!) and you will struggle to get it down and keep it onboard without damaging it. If you are young and fit you 'might' manage it but its not part of any sensible plan IMHO. Running down wind will see you out of control (or at least any semblance of control in such rough conditions) with the genoa steaming out in front of you and physically very difficult to pull back on board. If you change your mind and roll it up, you will end up with a poor roll with bits of sail catching the wind.

I have always been left with the conclusion that (as found in magazine tests), an inner forestay properly tensioned is by far the better solution. For those who have heard that it will break the mast, then I suggest you take more advice. There are recommendations from mast builders about where the fittings for inner forestays can go. Its usually fairly close to the masthead unless you've got running backstays from lower down - in which case I believe that the best place is from where the running backstays are fitted. But as most cruising boats don't have running backstays, then that is probably irrelevant.

My experience is that the forestay tensioners that are commonly available and which work on a highfield lever type principle aren't easy to get serious forestay tension on with. There are others available that have a pelican hook and use a screw with arms on it that you can wind up really tightly but they are not cheap. You need to make sure that the fitting on the deck is up to its role... I have a design for ours (not yet made and fitted) in which the fitting has backing plates which are 'L' shaped and through bolted either side of the dwarf bulkhead which forms the aft end of the anchor chain locker. The bulkhead was glassed into the boat when it was built so is integral to the hull.

There are problems with where to stow the inner forestay when not in use (99.9% of the time) and I have seen boats with small removable strops so that the forestay can be set up close to the mast and out of the way when not in use. (Obviously the thing is too long otherwise).

My two penny worth... and all IMHO

 

[jwilson]

Pete,

hopefully if things haven't got too bad and the boat can be put on say a fine reach, the genoa could be bundled straight down the forehatch as it came off the foil.

If too lumpy for an open hatch it would be a case of bundling it with ties and either lashing to the guardrails ( last resort, difficult to be really secure ) or then quickly stuffing it below between waves.

Again netting on the forward guardrails would help enormously.

I have set a storm jib in anger in genuine survival conditions. This was in days before furlers were standard, so hanked-on sails. Did not have to remove any larger sails as we were going from lying ahull to start with - heeled about 20-30 degrees on mast windage alone. I would certainly not attempt to remove a full genoa from its foil if setting a storm jib in anything more than about F7, and it would be "interesting" even then.

I also have very grave doubts about the various "set over a rolled genoa" storm jibs, due to friction between the rolled genoa and the storm jib luff folded round it.

If anyone has one of the patent "over-rolled-genoa" storm jibs it would be interesting to try setting it when tied up to a pontoon and your wind instrument is off the scale. Testing in 30 knots mean is pointless.

 

[alant]

Yes, and I've been foredeck crew on Army boats which deliberately avoided roller reefing because it made life too easy . I know how to handle traditional headsails, and they're not as hard as some people make out. After all, it's not that long ago in the great scheme of things that everybody used to use them.

My point is that unrolling and then hauling down a 140% masthead genoa on a mid-sized boat in a near-gale is harder than making the equivalent sail change would be with hanked-on sails.

Pete

Exactly what I was getting at.

Having rolled in your genoa to reef, as the wind increases, then having to unroll it when the wind is severe enough to consider a storm jib, is an exercise frought with danger for any foredeck crew. The weight of wind on that sail + flogging, even if protected by the main, be nigh impossible to handle for even the gorillas amongst us. Any skipper expecting someone to risk that hazard, is being stupidly irresponsible.

 

[alant]

With respect, I wonder whether all those who say 'remove the genoa' have ever been out in really serious winds? As others have said it really is impractical to start unrolling genoas and getting them down when the wind is blowing a proper gale. Claiming you can sail a close reach or 'run off downwind'? You won't manage a close reach as soon as that sail is unrolled (even without any sheeting in at all!) and you will struggle to get it down and keep it onboard without damaging it. If you are young and fit you 'might' manage it but its not part of any sensible plan IMHO. Running down wind will see you out of control (or at least any semblance of control in such rough conditions) with the genoa steaming out in front of you and physically very difficult to pull back on board. If you change your mind and roll it up, you will end up with a poor roll with bits of sail catching the wind.

I have always been left with the conclusion that (as found in magazine tests), an inner forestay properly tensioned is by far the better solution. For those who have heard that it will break the mast, then I suggest you take more advice. There are recommendations from mast builders about where the fittings for inner forestays can go. Its usually fairly close to the masthead unless you've got running backstays from lower down - in which case I believe that the best place is from where the running backstays are fitted. But as most cruising boats don't have running backstays, then that is probably irrelevant.

My experience is that the forestay tensioners that are commonly available and which work on a highfield lever type principle aren't easy to get serious forestay tension on with. There are others available that have a pelican hook and use a screw with arms on it that you can wind up really tightly but they are not cheap. You need to make sure that the fitting on the deck is up to its role... I have a design for ours (not yet made and fitted) in which the fitting has backing plates which are 'L' shaped and through bolted either side of the dwarf bulkhead which forms the aft end of the anchor chain locker. The bulkhead was glassed into the boat when it was built so is integral to the hull.

There are problems with where to stow the inner forestay when not in use (99.9% of the time) and I have seen boats with small removable strops so that the forestay can be set up close to the mast and out of the way when not in use. (Obviously the thing is too long otherwise).

My two penny worth... and all IMHO

+1

 

[Seajet]

With respect, I wonder whether all those who say 'remove the genoa' have ever been out in really serious winds? As others have said it really is impractical to start unrolling genoas and getting them down when the wind is blowing a proper gale. Claiming you can sail a close reach or 'run off downwind'? You won't manage a close reach as soon as that sail is unrolled (even without any sheeting in at all!) and you will struggle to get it down and keep it onboard without damaging it. If you are young and fit you 'might' manage it but its not part of any sensible plan IMHO. Running down wind will see you out of control (or at least any semblance of control in such rough conditions) with the genoa steaming out in front of you and physically very difficult to pull back on board. If you change your mind and roll it up, you will end up with a poor roll with bits of sail catching the wind.

I have always been left with the conclusion that (as found in magazine tests), an inner forestay properly tensioned is by far the better solution. For those who have heard that it will break the mast, then I suggest you take more advice. There are recommendations from mast builders about where the fittings for inner forestays can go. Its usually fairly close to the masthead unless you've got running backstays from lower down - in which case I believe that the best place is from where the running backstays are fitted. But as most cruising boats don't have running backstays, then that is probably irrelevant.

My experience is that the forestay tensioners that are commonly available and which work on a highfield lever type principle aren't easy to get serious forestay tension on with. There are others available that have a pelican hook and use a screw with arms on it that you can wind up really tightly but they are not cheap. You need to make sure that the fitting on the deck is up to its role... I have a design for ours (not yet made and fitted) in which the fitting has backing plates which are 'L' shaped and through bolted either side of the dwarf bulkhead which forms the aft end of the anchor chain locker. The bulkhead was glassed into the boat when it was built so is integral to the hull.

There are problems with where to stow the inner forestay when not in use (99.9% of the time) and I have seen boats with small removable strops so that the forestay can be set up close to the mast and out of the way when not in use. (Obviously the thing is too long otherwise).

My two penny worth... and all IMHO

I've sailed my 22' boat through prolonged squalls of 55 knots, as recorded by TS Royalist whose crew were watching ' the little blue boat '.

I've also sailed a Gib Sea 42 with hanked sails in F10 and my Carter 30 in F8.

In all these situations I managed to change down to the storm jib without the boat blowing up or damaging the space / time continuum.

I also reckon I am joint holder of the Westerly Centaur speed record after the poxy roller genoa jammed full out all but a turn or two in F8, fortunately we wanted to go downwind anyway.

The people clicking their tongues here amaze me, getting the genoa off is not a task of hercules, and yes, I have been out on the odd windy day.

 

[prv]

I've sailed my 22' boat through prolonged squalls of 55 knots, as recorded by TS Royalist whose crew were watching ' the little blue boat '.

I've also sailed a Gib Sea 42 with hanked sails in F10 and my Carter 30 in F8.

You seem to be missing the point. All three of those boats had hanked on sails.

Pete

 

[Seajet]

Roller Blind

You seem to be missing the point. All three of those boats had hanked on sails.

Pete

I had to change down sails though didn't I ?

The point is that I and other people who know about windage were pretty much being accused of not having been out in wind, I have.

It seems to me a generation or two of getting reliant on roller headsails has made people afraid to meddle with the easy 'works most of the time' solution and terrified of a completely normal sailing evolution; which explains why so few boats with rollers have taken the seamanlike step of sorting a proper storm jib set-up.

 

[Tomonboard]

ATN

ATN is a company that also have another product they call the gale sail.

I picked up a brochure this week for ATN products from Peter Sanders at Sanders Sails. Suggest you speak with him, as I haven't tried the product I just came across it and saw your post.

Thomas

 

[ghostlymoron]

At the risk of sounding silly.

Once upon a time I used to regard a furling forskine as rather wimpy. Then I sailed with one. Don't like all or nothing hood system. like harken its so easy to furl a bit and let out a bit as the wind changes.

I have more than 1 furling sail. on my little boat.

I have the big one which came with boat and a smaller No 2 I had local sailmaker make for my boat from a used No2 gib from simmillar boat. all he had to do was replace luff with rope luff. I intend to have a No 3 made not got round to it yet.

A no2 furled a bit with 2nd reef boat ballances ok and goes to windward in gale.
over powers a bit and tendancy to round up. If out in a big sea slams down and stops looses ground to lee.

A small no 3 of course I have to get 3rd reef for main at same time.
haven't gone out in F10 recently


I try not to change underway. its relativly simple less than 5min while in dock.

What's a furling foreskine ?

 

[prv]

I had to change down sails though didn't I ?

You did. That's why, when it came to switching to the storm jib, you had a much easier time of it than someone with a 140% roller genoa who might have tried to follow your misguided advice to unroll it all and drag it down on deck.

That's what I'm trying to get through to you, but I'm going to give up soon

Pete

 

[Seajet]

I know what you're trying to say, it's just that I'm used to seperate sails, even big ones, and I'm not misguided, I just don't agree with you.

Sailors take down big asymmetrics and conventional kites on quite windy days, and not everyone is afflicted with a roller job, people who are used to just winding sails in seem to think actually handling them means some bogeyman is going to rise up and snaffle them into Davey Jones Locker...

 

[jwilson]

I know what you're trying to say, it's just that I'm used to seperate sails, even big ones, and I'm not misguided, I just don't agree with you.

Sailors take down big asymmetrics and conventional kites on quite windy days, and not everyone is afflicted with a roller job, people who are used to just winding sails in seem to think actually handling them means some bogeyman is going to rise up and snaffle them into Davey Jones Locker...

I must disagree, you don't take down spinnakers in 50/60/70 knots of wind. Forces on sails from the wind do not increase in a straight-line fashion - they are exponential, and any attempt to unroll a big roller genoa in conditions when you really need a storm jib, to take it down, lower luff coming off the foil, would be a recipe for horrible things to happen.

Firstly the boat will be more or less on her beam ends with the windage of a fully unrolled genoa flogging. Then once you get it half way down, if you can even do so, on say a 35-footer you will have 20 feet of unrestrained luff flogging and trying to fill with wind and/or many tons of water. You will NOT be able to restrain it. It is do-able with hanked on sails as the luff is always restrained, but not taking off a roller genoa.

The answer if you have to sail is a removable separate inner forestay and a hank-on storm jib, either leaving the rolled up genoa rolled, or if you have the chance taking it down well before the wind gets to storm force.

I do not personally believe that massive tension is required on the temporary inner forestay. It needs to be there and reasonably taut to control the luff when hoisting, but once a storm jib is set you will not be sailing that close to the wind, and a slight curve in the luff is not that much of a problem. That is my personal view anyway, and I have spent about 36 hours sailing under storm jib alone in survival conditions, though one hanked to the main forestay.

If you have a powerful and reliable engine and enough fuel I'd use it to 'dodge' rather than mess about with sails. Very low speed, but keep bows up into seas, though it may take a lot of throttle. On the 36 hours under storm jib occasion the engine was dead. We'd already had the keel in the air several times.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I must disagree, you don't take down spinnakers in 50/60/70 knots of wind. Forces on sails from the wind do not increase in a straight-line fashion - they are exponential, and any attempt to unroll a big roller genoa in conditions when you really need a storm jib, to take it down, lower luff coming off the foil, would be a recipe for horrible things to happen.

Firstly the boat will be more or less on her beam ends with the windage of a fully unrolled genoa flogging. Then once you get it half way down, if you can even do so, on say a 35-footer you will have 20 feet of unrestrained luff flogging and trying to fill with wind and/or many tons of water. You will NOT be able to restrain it. It is do-able with hanked on sails as the luff is always restrained, but not taking off a roller genoa.

The answer if you have to sail is a removable separate inner forestay and a hank-on storm jib, either leaving the rolled up genoa rolled, or if you have the chance taking it down well before the wind gets to storm force.

I think that Seajet will have to carry on trying to go against the flow with his suggestion that its fairly straightforward to remove a roller genoa in truly gale force winds. Several people (including me) have tried to explain that its difficult to the point of risking damage to the sail or dangerous to unroll large overlapping genoas and lower them but there's no persuading some people.

Part of the problem might be that if I remember correctly Seajet's boat is twenty something feet long and the sails are correspondingly sized. If he would like to come and take the genoa down on our 39' boat when its blowing a true gale, he can come and have a go. Its a masthead rig with a very large foresail, and I will check my insurance before we start. I am fairly large and fit - and I can just about manage to lift the sail by myself when it is dry and folded into its bag. Now put a gale of wind into the equation plus the sail being wet...

 

[LadyInBed]

As others have said it really is impractical to start unrolling genoas and getting them down when the wind is blowing a proper gale.

And to suggest opening the fore hatch in those conditions is unbelievable!

 

[Uricanejack]

Both sides of this argument make good points. I think it comes down to what you are comfortable with.

Now I don't claim to do this in a Uricane. But I have changed a furling genoa in gale or near gale force winds. I am not saying its easy. My own boat is only a 24. I found it less difficult on a larger vessel. (A 39 with two slides no hanks no furling) If I plan well job is done prior to bad conditions. If I planned badly I have to go forward with harness. Sail ties and smaller sail.

 

[Uricanejack]

What's a furling foreskine ?

I shall leave it to your imagination

 

[Seajet]

I think that Seajet will have to carry on trying to go against the flow with his suggestion that its fairly straightforward to remove a roller genoa in truly gale force winds. Several people (including me) have tried to explain that its difficult to the point of risking damage to the sail or dangerous to unroll large overlapping genoas and lower them but there's no persuading some people.

Part of the problem might be that if I remember correctly Seajet's boat is twenty something feet long and the sails are correspondingly sized. If he would like to come and take the genoa down on our 39' boat when its blowing a true gale, he can come and have a go. Its a masthead rig with a very large foresail, and I will check my insurance before we start. I am fairly large and fit - and I can just about manage to lift the sail by myself when it is dry and folded into its bag. Now put a gale of wind into the equation plus the sail being wet...

You are conveniently forgetting I've also had much larger boats and rigs...

People here seem to think I'm suggesting getting rid of the rolled sails' windage for fun.

I am saying it's easy.

Easy compared to trying to swim through surf, bits of your boat and the bodies of your companions when you can't get off a lee shore.

That is what is at stake.

Engines won't help you in such conditions and are likely to fail through stirred up muck in fuel or water into air intakes; this is not bashing home to the Hamble on a Sunday evening.

Damn right I can get your sails down, all of you; I hope you could work it out too given such motivation.

 

[jwilson]

You are conveniently forgetting I've also had much larger boats and rigs...

People here seem to think I'm suggesting getting rid of the rolled sails' windage for fun.

I am saying it's easy.

Easy compared to trying to swim through surf, bits of your boat and the bodies of your companions when you can't get off a lee shore.

That is what is at stake.

Engines won't help you in such conditions and are likely to fail through stirred up muck in fuel or water into air intakes; this is not bashing home to the Hamble on a Sunday evening.

Damn right I can get your sails down, all of you; I hope you could work it out too given such motivation.

I'm sure you have taken down HANKED ON headsails on bigger boats in very strong winds. That is do-able - though the stronger the wind the harder it will be. In those circumstances however it is most unlikely you were going straight from a 150% genoa to a storm jib - by the time you get to want a storm jib you have normally long since changed the big genoa for a No 2 or 3.

If you plan to set off in gale conditions it is feasible and sensible to take down the roller genoa and rig a smaller sail before departure. Trying to do it in big seas and full gale or worse conditions is insane. There is a 90% probability that you will end up in worse trouble than before you started.

 

[lenseman]

I shall leave it to your imagination

Oh, I thought you would use the furling foreskine sail to circumcise the World!



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