Storm Boards - forward windows?

[Tim Good]

Quick summary: do I need to bother making storm boards for my forward windows also?

More detail: Ok so following on from previous threads and advice I've kindly had, I've nearly finished installing my polycarbonate storm boards with neoprene seals over my existing windows. However I've only done the three on each side of the deck saloon.

The purpose of these is to prevent them being smashed as a result of a violent knock down. I've "assumed" that no amount of green water over the deck could cause my forward windows any harm.

Is my assumption well founded or should I go to the effort of making boards for these also? Pic of my newly created ones here:

 

[Seajet]

Personally, yes I'd have them over the forward windows as well - considering a situation like hove to or laying to a sea anchor in heavy seas.

 

[NormanS]

The previous owner of my deck saloon ketch was recommended by surveyor, to make and fit storm windows for the side windows, for Biscay crossings etc. He reckoned that the front windows were not so vulnerable. I'm not sure.

 

[pvb]

Pic of my newly created ones here:

View attachment 67851

Looks neat! Is that the final fixing method? Wonder if it's robust enough.

 

[Tim Good]

Looks neat! Is that the final fixing method? Wonder if it's robust enough.

Realistically it only needs to hold the window in place over the other ones. I've fixed them with 6 bolts going into nutserts (Rivnuts). I've thought there would be very little lateral or shear force on nuts even with a huge green wave coming over the side.

 

[Neeves]

We had waves continuously breaking over the top of our cabin roof on a Bass Strait crossing, and the roof is around 2.5/2.75m above the waterline. We were caught in a small and unforecast low pressure cell for 7 hours of +50 knots. The forces developed were quite remarkable. It is a catamaran and a mono hull will behave differently. We suffered no damage so I cannot indicate any weaknesses.

I think you might underestimate the pressure the water might exert 'under' the edges of the windows and I would be inclined to have some increased area under the bolt heads (if I'm interpreting the image correctly). So between bolt head and window. Large washers might be good, or something custom made. We were reaching and the forward facing windows took little impact. I would actually have a frame right round the windows, but following the bolt heads - so inset from the storm board edges, stainless strip, welded at the corners, would not detract. It might be a bit late to close off the edges, so that water cannot get 'underneath'.

I might misinterpret the image - in which case, ignore everything I have mentioned.

I cannot think why you would beat into heavy seas - desperation maybe. The most likely scenario is you will be reaching or running - which might explain why the forward facing windows have not been mentioned in any recommendation - coupled with the fact the bow of the yacht would take most impact. Consequently the chance you will expose forward facing windows to potentially damaging seas is less likely. But if you can sensibly arrange storm boards - I would not hesitate.

As a unplanned benefit - you will double glaze the windows, making the yacht more comfortable in winter.

Jonathan

 

[Tim Good]

Just coming back to this again. I've now finished all 6 windows on both sides. See photo:



Since then I met Melvyn Wheatley who was rescued by the Queen Mary 2 after a a knockdown. His porthole was broken and enough water came in to cause him to put out a mayday. He told me that something inside the boat smashed the window, not a wave. See story below.

Anyway this brings me back to storm boards for the forward windows. I believe no matter how well you secure things, there will always be something substantial that could fly across the cabin and smash a window.

http://www.ybw.com/news-from-yachti...ith-one-boat-sunk-and-another-abandoned-54404

 

[Hadenough]

Nice job and I am now thinking of double glazing mine in the same way for winter heat retention. But I agree with Neeves, I think that a big green one over the bow will peel those off unless you increase the size of your washers under the fixings. Maybe too, 'fair' the gap with mastic to smooth the edges.

 

[Daydream believer]

Can you stow some plywood & some bars on bolts, so that if you did loose a window you could push the ply panels out from the inside & using the bars clamp it in place with wing nuts. Some rubber around the edges of the panel would help seal them. Might even have some polycarbonate or tufnol etc instead of ply.

 

[Tim Good]

Nice job and I am now thinking of double glazing mine in the same way for winter heat retention. But I agree with Neeves, I think that a big green one over the bow will peel those off unless you increase the size of your washers under the fixings. Maybe too, 'fair' the gap with mastic to smooth the edges.

Yeah I'm thinking of some large rubber washers but perhaps some stainless ones are better. The gap is small and I just can't see that much force being possible. If something so powerful came up and over the boat I think I'd be loosing stancheons, and a lot of other things before those windows.

I worry more about my rivnut inserts to be honest. A better solution would be to bolt right through the frame but that would lead to water ingress somewhere with rain and would annoying me to hell.

 

[Tim Good]

Can you stow some plywood & some bars on bolts, so that if you did loose a window you could push the ply panels out from the inside & using the bars clamp it in place with wing nuts. Some rubber around the edges of the panel would help seal them. Might even have some polycarbonate or tufnol etc instead of ply.

Yeah I do have these already. But for something to smash a window from the inside will likely mean you're on your side or up side down. In which case water will enter and lots of it. I want a solution to avoid that situation alltogether.

 

[jwilson]

I still have in a drawer at home a 2" chunk of perspex window smashed by water in an inversion nearly 40 years ago. I was standing on the cabin headlining for a few seconds watching water come in through the (quite small) port until she righted.

If windows polycarbonate I might trust them, assuming frames are also strong. A lot depends on where and when you are planning to go?

 

[Tim Good]

I still have in a drawer at home a 2" chunk of perspex window smashed by water in an inversion nearly 40 years ago. I was standing on the cabin headlining for a few seconds watching water come in through the (quite small) port until she righted.

If windows polycarbonate I might trust them, assuming frames are also strong. A lot depends on where and when you are planning to go?

Interesting! Thanks for the reply. It's rare to find someone with direct experience. So was this during a knock down? I.e. the boat through onto its side and the weight of the boat impacting the water onto the perspex?

Can you elaborate on the experience and what conditions you were in? Heave to? Lying ahull? Running with the waves? etc?

 

[jwilson]

Running under bare poles off Iceland in 1979. First one either a pitchpole or a super-violent broach. Boat landed inverted on the deck and the two people in the cockpit at the time. Had keel in air 4 times before discovering that boat could just keep bow up to breaking seas under storm jib. UFO34 - IOR era cruiser/racer. Full story in 5th edition of "Heavy Weather Sailing" - it seems to have gone from the latest 7th edition.

After the first inversion I was on deck, after the 3rd I set the storm jib aiming to sail faster and have more control. Didn't work downwind, again swimming on end of harness line looking at keel sticking up. UFO34s right fast: came up beam on, accelerated fast, I sort of automatically put the helm down to luff into the next breaker and found that worked. Did that reach-luff-reach sequence again and again for a long long cold time.

Might not work on a long-keeler, but on a fast fin-keeler it's certainly an option. Look at some of the helicopter videos of the 1998 Sydney-Hobart, racing boats sailing to windward in extreme conditions, massive leeway and a pretty snaky course obvious but under complete control.

 

[Tim Good]

Running under bare poles off Iceland in 1979. First one either a pitchpole or a super-violent broach. Boat landed inverted on the deck and the two people in the cockpit at the time. Had keel in air 4 times before discovering that boat could just keep bow up to breaking seas under storm jib. UFO34 - IOR era cruiser/racer. Full story in 5th edition of "Heavy Weather Sailing" - it seems to have gone from the latest 7th edition.

After the first inversion I was on deck, after the 3rd I set the storm jib aiming to sail faster and have more control. Didn't work downwind, again swimming on end of harness line looking at keel sticking up. UFO34s right fast: came up beam on, accelerated fast, I sort of automatically put the helm down to luff into the next breaker and found that worked. Did that reach-luff-reach sequence again and again for a long long cold time.

Might not work on a long-keeler, but on a fast fin-keeler it's certainly an option. Look at some of the helicopter videos of the 1998 Sydney-Hobart, racing boats sailing to windward in extreme conditions, massive leeway and a pretty snaky course obvious but under complete control.

Are your balls made of steel?

 

[Daydream believer]

Yeah I do have these already. But for something to smash a window from the inside will likely mean you're on your side or up side down. In which case water will enter and lots of it. I want a solution to avoid that situation alltogether.

I was not thinking of anything smashing windows from the inside. I just considered it as the standard solution for a window popping out in big seas. You just go inside , push the ply panel out from the inside & hold in place using the bars on the inside bolted up tight.
You would get water on board but should be able to pump that out unless lots of waves smashed into the boat. In that case you are in trouble anyway.

 

[Puggy]

Are your balls made of steel?

+1