Still think red's demise makes no difference?

Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]
You can't.
But you can own it without using it.
CHECK! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, what does that prove? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

I would say the price of diesel will make a difference to me, but it wont make me get rid of my boat....Hell will have to freeze over first!

This boat has been a dream and now a reality! This government determination to destroy middle England will just make people more determined to resist. I can't see this government lasting beyond the next election (even if GB doesn't get assassinated first /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

If the next government doen't try to return England to the people and continue to give way to Brussels, it will be a case of "last one to leave, switch off the light!".

I remember in the 70's when Labour created the "Brain Drain" where anyone who had any sort of brain, got up and emigrated! Labour got kicked out then too!

In the mean time, I'll just have to put my companies rates up, do more of my own maintenance, spend more time cooking our own food onboard instead of eating out when we go anywhere, spend more time drinking onboard instead of in the marina bars, or the bars where I am visiting, and enjoy my boat, until I can afford to sell up and live abroad. I never thought I would ever say that, but this country is getting so depressing now, stealth taxes here...unpunished crime there, hotels for prisons etc.....

I need my boat to get me away from all this. It's surprising how theraputic it is spending time on the boat!

To hell with GB!

That's my rant for the day anyway /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Garry
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]
. I've just done a very quick calculation re our costs 2006 v 2007 (expected).

We use our boat a great deal, but living in the Midlands she is often used as a second home. Last year we only did around 60 hours, not all at cruising speed, and I expect much the same 2007.

Our main costs for for 2006 were as follows:

Marina £5100 (13 metre boat, Chichester marina)
Insurance £750
Maintenance/servicing/antifoul etc (KAD 300's/DP) £1550
Fuel £2160 (based on 20gph cruising)

Total, £9560

2007 estimate:

Marina £5398 (estimate at +5%)
Insurance £800 (shop around to try a keep near last years price))
Service/antifoul etc etc £1650 (keep near enough the same - I use non Volvo engineers and small one man band shipwrights etc)
Fuel approx £4400, (same usage)

Total £12248

I estimate an increase of £2688 for like for like boating if the fuel went up tomorrow (though the price hike will not hopefully bite 'til 2008)

This equates to a bit over a 20% increase in general running costs, not 100%. It's still a lot of money of course, but in the grand scale of things, I really don't see it as fatal in the longer term.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great that some one has actually made an attempt to look at this and not just moan doom and gloom, thanks for sharing, I hope Dave is thinking


I would also like to add my £60 000 outlay 8 years ago would have bought 3 Terrace houses that would be worth £250 000 now and have brought in £15 000 rent pa

Thats £310 000 extra costs over 8 years !

Boating in not for those who dont want excitement, anyone who sits on the fence waiting to see what happens is the sort that will walk up and down the pontoon too scared to cast off into the unknown.

Sorry Dave you need to rethink, do you see risk or excitement ?
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

It proves, in my view, that for once , you do not have a valid answer & so are doing politician speak.
i.e. not answering the original question.
Come on , you go on about a reasoned argument but then change the rules. very amateur!
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

What the bloody hell are you on about..???? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

I see your logic now.

I'm going to buy a boat, I'm never going to use it much, so the cost of fuel wont matter, besides I can save a fortune by not buying , sat nav, chart plotters, auto pilots, radar, life rafts, etc, etc. After all being as I am never going anywhere, I wont need them.

I'm going to buy a boat, so I can just tell my friends, I've got a boat. They will not be invited to it, because one of the pillocks will want a ride out in it and under the 50 hours max per year rule. That will not be possible.

I'm going to buy a boat...............
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Is it me or is he mad?????????????
No.2 son just come home from skiing in Italy, so will sign off now, but I will be back to argue with you some more, Ari, as it is really good fun & passes the time till new boat arrives.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

I'll assume from the thrust of your argument that it's not a diesel boat? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]


I'm going to buy a boat...............

[/ QUOTE ]

Hayden, you've already got a boat...

(I worry about people on here sometimes, I really do /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif)
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Nice big twin diesel actually.
Anyway, if you buy a boat then you accept certain fixed costs.
These include the cost of the boat, a berth or mooring, insurance, & maintenance.
You may argue that maintenance should not be included, but if you do not maintain something, then it will fall into disrepair, no matter how little it is used.
Therefore the only costs that are not "fixed costs" are fuel and a little extra maintenance.
It therefore follows that if fuel goes up by around 100% then running costs also go up by around 100%.
This is what I mean about cost of owning a boat versus cost of actually using the boat you own.
If the cost of using a boat doubles, then if you can afford it, fine, but if you can't, then you don't buy a boat.
To try and simplify this for you, if you buy a £750000 house, you make sure you can afford the running costs of such a house. If you can't, then you don't buy it, unless you are mad, of course. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Annual costs to run my boat:

Mooring
Insurance
Servicing
Anodes
Antifouling
Maintenance
Fuel

These are annual running costs, they are charges associated with running the boat.

Yes the fuel cost is the one that varies trip to trip. Which is handy in this case as it allows people the flexibility to go less distance or less often if they want to reduce that element of the annual running cost. Not something you can do with a marina berth price that has gone up by several thousand pounds...

What amuses me most is that even those proclaiming doom and gloom are happily buying bigger boats with bigger engines. Talk about not putting your money where your mouth is. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Ari
Foe ease of communication I shall itemise the points.

1. I already know of two boats in the last week that have been put on the market with the owners getting out of boating because they in once case cannot afford to continue and in the other case they do not think its worth it. That is not an opinion that is fact.

I changed my boat and went over to an SD hull with one of the factors being diesel. It would enable to to boat at my old cost because I can comfortably use it at a fraction of the mpg of the old boat. Large old planing boats are currently overpriced in the market and simply not selling. So I acted on what I saw coming.

I could afford to go to Padstow and spend £2000 on fuel but would never do that because it simply throwing money away. By going slower I can do the same trip for under £500.

I do know very wealthy people and its true that some will just continue as before - some will sell their boat and some will go abroad with it because the balance of the many factors between the UK and the Med has changed.

Please believe that many self made wealthy people do not like wasting money - they will spend £1m on a boat and then refuse to go on an 80 mile trip because its too expensive. That is a fact.

You call my views extreme – I can promise you that I am right in the scene of those with 20k boats who struggle and those with 40 foot boats who struggle. I live in the real world.

I totally disagree that new boaters purchasing a boat are not aware of the fuel costs – they would be stupid not to know the running costs and they are more than aware of the fuel cots – what planet are you on with this?

I know people with small petrol boats and their costs do not change – they have to really measure every trip and are mainly confined to trips to local bays etc – usually no further than ten miles – that market will remain.

Ari this year I shall, like other be paying old red prices, next year I am away cruising – basically I shall never have to pay the high fuel costs. My next boats has a 3500 gallon fuel tank so even that will mean I can choose where I fill up then cruise for over 4000 miles. It is not folks like me who are going to suffer most – its those hard working people who choose to boat and sacrifice many other things to do that. They do not live off the state and their taxes help keep the 1 in 3 familys drawing state support going. The burden that is being placed on these folks who to me are the backbone of boating – is immense and I am very angry because it is bloody unfair.

You truly see the world in a different way as to how it really is. I am sure you are sincere when you call my views extreme but so far my view of the world and what it will do in the future has provided me good living and kept the wolf from the door. I am not an extremist, although GB may just make me into one soon.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

This is good fun, isn't it.
Anyway /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
1/If you have a boat you have to keep it somewhere, so mooring costs are fixed costs.
2/Unless you are a complete fool you will insure such a valuable asset, so insurance is a fixed cost
3/servicing, anodes, anti fouling, etc all come under maintenance, & so are mainly fixed costs, but increase by a small amount in line with usage.
4/Fuel is the only cost that is completely variable, so this is a cost of use.

I do hope this clarifies things for you, as you seem to be getting a little confused!

You mention that people can reduce their costs by using their boat less frequently, & not going as far. I have a heated swimming pool in my garden & could save a fortune by only heating & using it once a year. As it happens I keep it at 30 c all summer march to September, as if I didn't do this there would be no point in having it. I think this applies to boats as well, if your not going to get much use out of it, there is no point in buying it in the first place.
I am glad that my buying a bigger boat amuses you, but my argument has never been about me personally. My two sons have been in Italy this week skiing, at a not inconsiderable cost. Alex came home today & Sam will be home tomorrow. During our week off I took SWMBO to London for the week, we stayed in the Monet suit of the savoy, at an average cost of £750 per night, we did the shows including spamalot @ the palace theatre, which was bloody excellent. So, you see, if money got a bit tight then a few quid could be saved here & there. As I said, this is not about me, it is just about it not being right, which I will & am more than capable of doing something about.
Please note that despite my illness HMRC insisted on several VAT inspections & one tax investigation into my various businesses, all of which came out clean apart from an error on the fuel scale charge, & one invoice in the wrong place, which bearing in mind the size of turnover, was a waste of everybody's time. So now it is my turn to get things investigated, & that is what I am in the process of doing /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
In other words , they started it & I will bloody well finish it!!!!!!!
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, this is not about me,

[/ QUOTE ]

It is about you because you are a boat owner and what you've just written typifies typical boat owners.

Yes there are people out there scraping by to boat on a budget but they are mainly people like me running small petrol boats, the guys with the six figure twin diesel guzzlers are not doing it on a shoe string any more than you are.

What comes through strongest in both your and Gludys posts is how unfair it is. Lots of references to Gordon Brown, Inland Revenue, unfair taxation, etc etc.

And you may well be right, in fact you probably are!

But I'm not interested in debating the politics, I simply don't know enough about it.

What I know about is boats, how much they cost to run (that's annual costs, forget all this crap about dividing up fixed and running annual costs, fact is they're all costs involved in owning a boat, they're all things that owners stick their hands in their pockets and pay for year after year in order to keep on boating).

Bottom line, yes it's probably desperately unfair, yes the government is probably a crock of sh!t, yes we're all being persecuted (hell, we all run cars, we should be used to it).

But people with big twin diesel cruisers are not poor, they're not living from hand to mouth and the loss of red diesel will not wipe swathes of them from the UK boating scene.

And you and Gludy are perfect proof of that in your actions, as are comments in this thread and others from real boaters affected by this.

Life isn't fair, now get on with it, the rest of us are.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Ari. Your presuming, that just cos some have more money, they waist it in ever greater amounts. However the reverse of this is generally true. Not necesarily footballers, etc, who will probably have blown it by 50.

Generally the rich are richer, because they were not silly with money. Saved up a bit first. (Horour) Borrowed little, (If any). Got a bit of fat on there backs. (As my old accountant would say) Withstood the hard times. Then moved on when they could. I've got an aquaintance that ownes one of the Air Tours buildings. Amoung others. Yet, far as I know, he's still farming and mends tv's in his spare time.

Your presuming, that folk with a few hundred grand in the bank, are ancious to spend it, at the first oppertunity. But no. Thats what the poor does. Thats why they remain poor.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Ari
You seem to me to be totally blind to the information right in front of you.

I wish you could meet up with my friends selling their boats and tell them it makes no difference.

To spell it out the person selling his sub 30 foot boats has assets well over a million but simply does not judge the marginal costs of using it to be worthwhile and so wants to sell before the rush. It is not because he is short of money.

I know people who own large boats on very normal incomes and struggle to keep them as well as I know people with small petrol boats who struggle to keep them.

You even calimed that your longer experience in boating than my 7 years qualified you better to judge these things!!!!

As others have stated - do not assume that those who can afford will afford.
Nor should you assume that those with large boats are wealthy.

Many lottery winners winning say £5 to £10 million have managed to lose it all very quickly because they do not understand money and how it works.

For the record, if you invest £1 million how much do you think it can earn for you?

Say you get 5% that’s a cool £50k but the taxman will take 40% leaving you £30k and then you should really take of inflation at say 2.5% leaving you a real gain of only £5k. Not much is it?

When I calculated the effect on the value of the boat by calculating how much you would need to knock off the boat in order to allow for the extra fuel bills you just dismissed it as mad. Yet to some extent that is what will happen. The market will reflect the change and I claim that you are not understanding the market nor does all your boating history equip you in anyway to understand the economics of that market.

I do not know anyone who when entering boating with their first boat does not consider the running costs but in Ari's world they do not do this - they jump in with both feet and ignore the main variable cost - fuel. That is is Ari’s world but that world can only be populated by you. Certainly everyone I know in boating considered the running costs of every purchase including their first.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Hi Ari
As I said it is not about me.
But 4 years ago It would have been about me, i f I had a boat 4 years ago & this had happened then I would most definitely get out & sell said boat. I have just been lucky in the last few years, apart from being ill, of course. So it is all those people who have worked so hard all there life that it nearly killed them, that I feel sorry for, those that have just about managed to buy a boat in the first place, and who got a diesel because they intended to do a few miles.
Just a note for all those in business, after my illness I decided that I had to do less work & delegate more, so I introduced a two tier bonus structure based on A/ turnover & B/profit above normal margin. Best thing I ever did. Turnover up dramatically & margins well up too. Every extra penny they make, they get a share of /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

If all the doom and gloom merchants are correct and there are loads of boats for sale not selling why arnt the forsale pages of MBM increasing ?
I keep checking Boats and outboards for Princess 360 (Im not thinking of buying or selling but keen to watch my investment value), guess how many are for sale.............. none.
When I bought mine there were 4 or 5 to choose from.

There are plenty of 360s for sale in other areas as there always has been but if your theories are correct there should be pages on boats and outboards for sale as they are the free adds.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]
To spell it out the person selling his sub 30 foot boats has assets well over a million but simply does not judge the marginal costs of using it to be worthwhile and so wants to sell before the rush. It is not because he is short of money.


[/ QUOTE ] There is not going to be a rush to sell sub 30 foot boats. This is the starter market and new blood will come along each year. Only half the boats in this range are diesel, the rest run on petrol from Tescos at 85ppl. In this range the only difference is that when new boats are ordered there will be a gradual switch back to petrol stern drives or outboards.

Pete
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Gentlemen, there is little more I can add. You ignore facts, reason, and pretty much everyone's opinion. Hell, the last poll on this board showed 90% saying they were staying in. And that's a board of enthusiast boaters who probably use their boat more than Mr Average powerboat owner. And lets not forget that diesel powerboats probably account for 40% of boats in the UK. Knock off yachts and petrol engines boats. So the true figure is probably under 5%.

Plenty of people who actually are the people you're not yet claim to know so well are on here saying they're staying in but you choose to ignore them.

You seem to think that the average Joe on the street can afford to buy and run a six figure powerboat, and you're completely wrong! I speak as one.

Earlier in this thread you decided that I must be a woman as I was refusing to agree with you (nothing to do with the fact that I and others could be right obviously?)

So I'll have a stab now and say that since you're both loudly rich successful people, neither of you are used to having people disagree with you or can accept reasoned debate against your own view.

Anyway, Rubberducks diesel protest should be a pretty good barometer of boat owners true feeling on this, if you are both right then they should come flocking.

I'm saying you'll get less than 30 boats actually turn up (not people who say they're coming, actually turn up for your little protest).

Over to you gentlemen, lets let the facts speak for themselves shall we?
 
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