Still think red's demise makes no difference?

You can all sleep soundly from now on. A budget boater writes....

"It is the lower end of the market that will suffer"

It is always gratifying to know that there is concern for the less successful members of society such as my self who are forced by poverty to buy and run boats on a budget.
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: You can all sleep soundly from now on. A budget boater writes....

update to this boat, I phoned Grange this morning to ask the reasons why this particular boat has dropped a third of it's asking price, is because of a bad survey report,dirty condition,old age,price of fuel,

Replies from David at grange,about the boat were,

the boat is in excellent condition,and clean, nothing on survey as far as we are aware, it is an older boat that we do not usually handle,it can be viewed locally at Cobb's quay and the fuel question,I wouldn't like to say sir!
"I think the owner just wants to get out of the boat"

what do you think?
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

No I am making connections.

The reverse demand curve does occur in the cosmetic industry and I have actually experienced it myself in the fishing industry on products costing circa £40.

However it tends to be confined to female buyers - so could this be extra evidence for Ari being a women?
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]
I know two boats for sale now that were sold 5/6 years ago with no depreciation.

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't that the point though,

they might be for sale at the pre red demise price,but they don't seem to be selling.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]

If someone is selling a product, & it becomes twice as expensive to use that product , no matter what it is , sales will suffer!


[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree on that, you're spot on.

However since fuel is a small proportion of the total running cost then clearly it will not be twice as expensive to use a boat over the course of a year as it was before the fuel price increase, nothing like.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

And incidently, since your "reasoned debate" has now been reduced to the level of "well Ari must be a woman because he/she's refusing to agree with me" there's not much point in me carrying on with this one.

I shall continue to attempt to inject a little common sense from time to time on the red diesel issue for those who prefer a balanced view but Im not slogging this one out again, it's pointless.

Anyway, I have to get my nails and hair done. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

I have to agree Ari. I've just done a very quick calculation re our costs 2006 v 2007 (expected).

We use our boat a great deal, but living in the Midlands she is often used as a second home. Last year we only did around 60 hours, not all at cruising speed, and I expect much the same 2007.

Our main costs for for 2006 were as follows:

Marina £5100 (13 metre boat, Chichester marina)
Insurance £750
Maintenance/servicing/antifoul etc (KAD 300's/DP) £1550
Fuel £2160 (based on 20gph cruising)

Total, £9560

2007 estimate:

Marina £5398 (estimate at +5%)
Insurance £800 (shop around to try a keep near last years price))
Service/antifoul etc etc £1650 (keep near enough the same - I use non Volvo engineers and small one man band shipwrights etc)
Fuel approx £4400, (same usage)

Total £12248

I estimate an increase of £2688 for like for like boating if the fuel went up tomorrow (though the price hike will not hopefully bite 'til 2008)

This equates to a bit over a 20% increase in general running costs, not 100%. It's still a lot of money of course, but in the grand scale of things, I really don't see it as fatal in the longer term.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Are we talking cost of having such a product, or cost of actually using it?
I think you will find that is the difference.
While it looks good having a Bentley on the drive, if you cant afford to put fuel in it on a regular basis, you will eventually get rid of it & get something more sensible.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

I do see your point, But it depends on you're individual circumstances. We live 20 Min's from boat so can clock up a lot more hours on board than travelling to & from /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
What really gets me is the attitude of this government towards taxation. Not just fuel, or biofuel but inheritance tax, council tax increases because of government cuts in funding. These are all tax's which they try to disguise by blaming it on global warming, inefficient councils, inflation etc etc. The time IMHO, has come to say enough is enough /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Ari
I agree that overall costs have not doubled - there is no doubt about that. We agree.

Fuel costs are the set to more than double.

I know boaters who used to do well over 300 hours p.a. - I do myself. These boaters are doing mucg more than your 60 hours an face very large extra costs.

You base your case on those who do not use their boats and there, I agree, many of those. So can we agree that for those who use their boats a lot the increase in costs is very large?

I hope so far we agree.

Now many, I claim most, people base their enjoyment on the marginal cost of the activity - regardless of whether they can afford it or not they base it on how much it will cost to get this much out of it.

So an 80 mile trip, round trip 160 miles in a 60 footer will cost about £1600 in fuel and frankly the people I know will not pay that out for the benefit they receive. They came into boating thinking that unlike cars boats, if looked after, hold their value. OK some depreciation when new but after that fairly steady. That is no longer the case - when they now look at the huge depreciation they will want to walk away from it.

You are very unusual - a keen boater in fact a very keen boter who basically does not use their boat much!!! 60 hours is not that much use. I would agree it aboutr average but average is not much.

So my points are:-
1. New boater entering boating will be put off by the huge marginal cost of using the boat - less folks will enter.

2. Those boaters who use their boats a lot face very large cost increases which they may not be able to afford or if they can afford may choose not to do so because its no longer worth it.

3. It is the marginal cost of an activity that is critical - folks buy very expensive cars that basically do the same transportation job as cheap cars but they too want good fuel efficiency. I know someone who is a multi-millionaire and got rod of a large engined car doing 12 mpg because he thought it bad value.
I know a number of wealthy people and some are getting out of boating because of the fuel hike and are doing it now.

I am saying all this adds up to a damaged industry and fewer boaters with the mix favouring the wealthy. All because of what? A money grabbing GB that will cause this damage and as a result collect a lot less tax .... that is what really gets to people.

My view is not extreme. I am not claiming the end of UK power boating so please answer any points in a logical manner without being perosonal or stating things I have not written
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]

What really gets me is the attitude of this government towards taxation. Not just fuel, or biofuel but inheritance tax, council tax increases because of government cuts in funding. These are all tax's which they try to disguise by blaming it on global warming, inefficient councils, inflation etc etc. The time IMHO, has come to say enough is enough /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally, all they are doing is finding more and more ways to take money from us to pay for hairbrained schemes that don't have a cat in hell's chance of working so that in then end we have no benefit from our increased tax burden.

The levels of increase with little or no return must be the main strength of any argument, regardless of the colour of the diesel.
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking cost of having such a product, or cost of actually using it?
I think you will find that is the difference.
While it looks good having a Bentley on the drive, if you cant afford to put fuel in it on a regular basis, you will eventually get rid of it & get something more sensible.

[/ QUOTE ]

God, I can't help getting drawn back in can I?

If you could explain to me how I can have the cost of using my boat without the cost of owning it I'd be very grateful. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]
Where I boat a 60 foot boat is large - most boats are 20 foot to 35 foot.Most boaters are ordinary people in ordinary jobs who sacrifice to keep their boats going...
The UK boating industry depends on new boaters entering the market to support the price of second hand boats

[/ QUOTE ] agreed but in the sub 25 foot range petrol is the dominate fuel surely. Peeps buying new boats now in this range are going to think very carefully before considering diesel boats when the latest outboards and FI vovlvo/mercs off resonable fuel economy. Since many are stored at home on trailers a visit to tesco for petrol at 85p on the way to the water isn't going to effect there boating. Those with big cruisers however face some difficult decisions,

[ QUOTE ]
I think that market will reduce by well over 60% - that is just my opinion but it based upon my observations.

[/ QUOTE ] Nah, those boats are going to go somehwere, prices may change but not the numbers.
[ QUOTE ]
I do think that it is also going to very hard to sell boats and prices will drop and drop

[/ QUOTE ] no only the bigger boats. Small boats which fall into the first time buyers range of say £10 - 20k are still going to be affordable by first time buyers.

[ QUOTE ]
Boating will survive in the UK but it will be smaller and with a greater shift to the wealthy - that will rip the real hearty out of it

[/ QUOTE ] thats life they always do, its those in the middle of the range, many who post on here who will be hit hardest I suspect.

[ QUOTE ]
So why is this happening?

[/ QUOTE ] don't foret we have had 3 interest rises recently which is going to have an effect on the market. Ordinary folks now paying more for the mortgage and now find the cost of borrowing money for a boat even more expensive too.

[ QUOTE ]
There .... I feel better now!

[/ QUOTE ] Good, /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif too many folks getting stressed out, its a hobbie, enjoy /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

But it depends at what end of the scale you are at, £2700 would cover my boating expences for 4 years.

Brian
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

[ QUOTE ]
My point exactly!
Anyway, my mums got bigger tits than you're mum /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet she hasn't /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

anyway , back to the point of the thread , I heard it was quite easy to convert ordinary cooking oil to use as fuel oil , if this is the case why doesn't everyone raid the local chippie and start a bit of DIY
 
Re: Still think red\'s demise makes no difference?

Gludy, these are sensible reasoned points so I will do my best to answer them for you. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif


[ QUOTE ]
Ari
I agree that overall costs have not doubled - there is no doubt about that. We agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. (So far so good eh?)

[ QUOTE ]
Fuel costs are the set to more than double.

[/ QUOTE ]

For diesel boats yes. Us real paupers bottom feeding at the lowest end of affordability are already paying road price for petrol.


[ QUOTE ]


I know boaters who used to do well over 300 hours p.a. - I do myself. These boaters are doing mucg more than your 60 hours an face very large extra costs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but you see Gludy, these people are rare. I appreciate that this fuel difference will have a big impact for them, but we're talking overall boat values across the whole marketplace here and the majority of boats average between 50 and 100 hours a year.

And I'll give you a good example of this just to help justify my point. I think everyone agrees that Hayden (love him or hate him) uses his boat a lot. Way more than average. Yet his boat (now, what, 18 years old?) has less than 100 hours a year average!

Now I know what you're going to say, he wasn't the first owner, his yearly use is probably higher, etc. But that's the point. Take these things as a wide spectrum and that is typical hours. So over the life of that boat (20 years) and however many owners (and I believe Hayden has had it for quite a while) it's still under 100 hours a year use on average.

[ QUOTE ]
You base your case on those who do not use their boats and there, I agree, many of those. So can we agree that for those who use their boats a lot the increase in costs is very large?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but this is the point. Most people don't. And since most boats are owned by most people their usage/fuel bills/costs etc are what count.
[ QUOTE ]

I hope so far we agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not entirely, but go on...

[ QUOTE ]

Now many, I claim most, people base their enjoyment on the marginal cost of the activity - regardless of whether they can afford it or not they base it on how much it will cost to get this much out of it.

So an 80 mile trip, round trip 160 miles in a 60 footer will cost about £1600 in fuel and frankly the people I know will not pay that out for the benefit they receive.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much is a 60 footer these days Gludy? A Million pounds plus? Second-hand, half a million? You can't tell me those people will be throwing their hands up in horror at another £800 a trip (Remember, that £1,600 is not the cost of the increase, they were already paying half of that before). And again, I'll give you a good example of a 60 footer buyer. You. You knew this was coming and yet you still bought. It didn't put you off and it won't put others off. A 60ft boat is a big financial undertaking, both buying and running, even second-hand.


[ QUOTE ]

They came into boating thinking that unlike cars boats, if looked after, hold their value. OK some depreciation when new but after that fairly steady. That is no longer the case - when they now look at the huge depreciation they will want to walk away from it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're saying that boats be less popular and therefore will go down in value because of red diesel. Now you're saying that people won't want them because they'll go down in value. In effect they'll depreciate because they'll depreciate. Which is a bit nonsensical. But lets look to cars as an example of things that do depreciate like mad. People still buy new Aston Martins and Lamborghinis.

[ QUOTE ]


You are very unusual - a keen boater in fact a very keen boter who basically does not use their boat much!!! 60 hours is not that much use. I would agree it aboutr average but average is not much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually use my boat a lot. But I don't go that far. Mainly because it's a small boat, and partly because of the cost of fuel. And that's why I feel I can speak with a degree of authority about how it actually really honestly works for people constrained by fuel costs. Fuel cost to boat or annual running costwise, my boat is probably as expensive as any by ratio. The boat is worth probably £20K ish and last year I spent about £1,500 on fuel. To put that ratio into perspective, that'd be like someone with a £200,000 boat spending £15,000 on fuel. Which, take a £200,000 V42 as a good example, they simply won't be, even at non red diesel cost. (I compare running cost to boat cost simply as a measure of what is affordable to an individual. No way I could afford to put the diesel in a V42, but even more no way could I afford to buy one in the first place!!)

[ QUOTE ]
So my points are:-
1. New boater entering boating will be put off by the huge marginal cost of using the boat - less folks will enter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. In fact I'd say most people when they very first start looking are probably unaware of the red diesel situation, Speak to any "non boaty" person and ask how much they think a "boaty" pays for a litre of diesel and I'll bet not many would answer "about 1/2 what I do".

[ QUOTE ]


2. Those boaters who use their boats a lot face very large cost increases which they may not be able to afford or if they can afford may choose not to do so because its no longer worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. But firstly those people are in the minority, like it or not. They're not "the face" of leisure motorboating. Don't believe me, pick up MBY, MBM, Boats and Yachts and look at engine hours, see for yourself. And secondly a high hour user is almost certainly a serious enthusiast and therefore less willing to be lightly put off. And he has the option to still use his boat but plan shorter trips or go less often. It's what I do sometimes. I'll have a "heavy" day where we blast off down the coast, use a lot of petrol, have a great time and the next day I'll think "can't do that again" and we'll go out 20 minutes up the coast, find a quiet cove, drop anchor and just enjoy being out on the boat. I love my boat and if using it means sometimes compromising on how far I'd like to go (and it does, sometimes) then I'll do exactly that. And so will other people.


[ QUOTE ]


3. It is the marginal cost of an activity that is critical - folks buy very expensive cars that basically do the same transportation job as cheap cars but they too want good fuel efficiency. I know someone who is a multi-millionaire and got rod of a large engined car doing 12 mpg because he thought it bad value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh nonsense! Go and stand on a motorway bridge and count the Range Rovers and Shoguns going past, burning way more fuel than proper cars and depreciating like mad at the same time. (Out of interest, what do you drive?) Some people think that way for sure, but they probably don't own boats anyway. Boating never was a financially sensible sport and it remains that way. It is however (for those of us who love it) incomparable for the pleasure it brings.

[ QUOTE ]


I know a number of wealthy people and some are getting out of boating because of the fuel hike and are doing it now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you know a number of people who are talking about it.

[ QUOTE ]


I am saying all this adds up to a damaged industry and fewer boaters with the mix favouring the wealthy.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're saying that you believe that it will. I believe that it won't, and so do plenty of other real boaters on and off this board.

I'm not saying it won't affect some people, and indeed some may well sell up. But there are a lot of boats out there, a hell of a lot. I'd be surprised if it had the direct effect of forcing people out on more than a couple of percent of boat owners and I don't believe that will impact on second-hand values.

[ QUOTE ]

All because of what? A money grabbing GB that will cause this damage and as a result collect a lot less tax .... that is what really gets to people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not arguing about the politics, you may well be right, all I'm talking about is the real effect of this.

[ QUOTE ]
My view is not extreme. I am not claiming the end of UK power boating so please answer any points in a logical manner without being perosonal or stating things I have not written

[/ QUOTE ]

But your view is extreme Gludy. One view you've quoted on here is that a rise in annual cost of £6,000 in running a boat will have a result of devaluing the boat by £145,000. Now that is an extreme view. Mind you, if you're right I'm going to get my dream Windy Ghibli at last, and the £20,000 they pay me to take it off their hands will keep me in fuel for 10 years! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Boating is not about balance sheets and price equations, cost to pleasure ratios and such forth. And it's about much more than just cold hard fuel usage costs.

There is a lot more expense than that and there is a lot more pleasure than just making trips. Sometimes I'll just spend an afternoon cleaning and polishing my boat till it looks better than new, and I'll derive real pleasure from that. Sometimes we'll go out and won't run at planing speed for more than the 20 mins it takes to get to a nice secluded cove for lunch and an afternoon in the sun. Owning a boat is about owning a boat. It was never sensible and it was never cheap. And it continues to not be both of those things, only slightly more so.

It won't put off the hardened boater like you and I (at opposite ends of the cost/size spectrum) because we value the pleasure boat ownership brings too much, and it won't put off the "toy" boater who uses his boat once in a blue moon because he spends nothing (comparatively) on fuel anyway.

Away from the red diesel issue, I think there are big rumblings out there in the economy at the moment and storm clouds gathering on the horizon, and those may yet (may already) be having an effect. But that is a separate issue. Red diesel won't be the cause of a decline in this country.
 
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