Sticking starter solenoid - I think.

[VicS]

If you thought you knew the answer, why ask the question ? Oh yes, being your usual smart arse Googling self.

No Googling involved. I disagreed but I wanted evidence ... I found it in the workshop manual on the shelf behind me !

It seems to me that in the marine environment surface rusting is likely to be the biggest problem esp of components left idle for months at a time. A little light oiling might just help to reduce this.
but I have not suggested any oil or grease on the pinion or ring gear teeth

 

[RichardS]

No. Gear teeth are not rotating shafts Richard.

Where did gear teeth come from? I thought we were talking rotor shaft, rotor thread and solenoid core as shown in in Vic's diagram and your post #11?

I wouldn't have a problem greasing the teeth but as the flywheel teeth and started pinion on most engines I work on are well-oiled anyway due to some leakage from the crankshaft oil seal I've never really worried about that.

Richard

 

[jsl]

Well, I've got a load of useful instructions now! If I could just reach downwards and sideways from the cockpit locker and find the fixing-bolts by touch and get a spanner on them and....

But I think I am to understand that solenoid and motor are enclosed in a single casing. (This is not obvious from my engine manual, nor indeed from looking at the offending beast from above.) So it's all or nothing, and no lubricating from outside - if at all.

 

[RichardS]

Well, I've got a load of useful instructions now! If I could just reach downwards and sideways from the cockpit locker and find the fixing-bolts by touch and get a spanner on them and....

But I think I am to understand that solenoid and motor are enclosed in a single casing. (This is not obvious from my engine manual, nor indeed from looking at the offending beast from above.) So it's all or nothing, and no lubricating from outside - if at all.

Sometimes it's a single casing and sometimes two casings which are bolted together .... however, you can't separate the solenoid from the motor part until you have removed the whole assembly from the engine as the solenoid lever joins the two together.

Richard

 

[PaulRainbow]

Where did gear teeth come from? I thought we were talking rotor shaft, rotor thread and solenoid core as shown in in Vic's diagram and your post #11?

I wouldn't have a problem greasing the teeth but as the flywheel teeth and started pinion on most engines I work on are well-oiled anyway due to some leakage from the crankshaft oil seal I've never really worried about that.

Richard

Post #11

If you oil the piston it sticks.

If you oil or grease the pinion and ring gear it either comes off rapidly, making a mess or it attracts dirt and causes wear.

No mention of anything to do with shafts or rotors. Post #11 was in response to any suggestion of oiling or greasing the solenoid piston. Oiling or greasing the piston or the teeth of the pinion is ill advised.

 

[RichardS]

Post #11

If you oil the piston it sticks.

If you oil or grease the pinion and ring gear it either comes off rapidly, making a mess or it attracts dirt and causes wear.[/quote

No mention of anything to do with shafts or rotors. Post #11 was in response to any suggestion of oiling or greasing the solenoid piston. Oiling or greasing the piston or the teeth of the pinion is ill advised.

So why did you get so stroppy about Vic's lubrication point diagram as that doesn't even show the pinion.

It seems you now agree that Vic and his diagram were spot on. Clearly when we talk about "oiling the pinion" we are all referring to the pinion shaft as there is absolutely zero chance of any amount of oil, grease or grinding paste on the pinion teeth itself ever causing that the stick or jam on the flywheel. It's the shaft which the pinion might stick on.

Richard

 

[PaulRainbow]

No Googling involved. I disagreed but I wanted evidence ... I found it in the workshop manual on the shelf behind me !

It seems to me that in the marine environment surface rusting is likely to be the biggest problem esp of components left idle for months at a time. A little light oiling might just help to reduce this.
but I have not suggested any oil or grease on the pinion or ring gear teeth

Greasing pre-engaged starter solenoids is a bad idea.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Where did gear teeth come from? I thought we were talking rotor shaft, rotor thread and solenoid core as shown in in Vic's diagram and your post #11?

I was taught never to lubricate the spiral engagement thread in a Bendix-type inertia starter, but that you can lubricate the pinion if you want (can't see the point, it gets cleaned off every time the starter operates) and that the innards of a pre-engage starter should lubricated.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Post #11

So why did you get so stroppy about Vic's lubrication point diagram as that doesn't even show the pinion.

Because Vic was being a smart arse. He could have posted his pic first, but chose to pretend he didn't know. (actually he doesn't know).

It seems you now agree that Vic and his diagram were spot on.

I do not. Greasing the piston is a bad idea.

Clearly when we talk about "oiling the pinion" we are all referring to the pinion shaft

If you or anyone else is referring to the shaft, kindly call it a shaft, not a pinion. Saves confusion.

 

[RichardS]

If you or anyone else is referring to the shaft, kindly call it a shaft, not a pinion. Saves confusion.

OK, I've got it. So when I removed an alternator pulley yesterday to "oil the pulley", I should have made it clear to the owner that I was not actually oiling the pulley but was, in fact, oiling the shaft that the pulley is attached to. Many thanks for the clarification Paul.

Richard

 

[PaulRainbow]

OK, I've got it. So when I removed an alternator pulley yesterday to "oil the pulley", I should have made it clear to the owner that I was not actually oiling the pulley but was, in fact, oiling the shaft that the pulley is attached to. Many thanks for the clarification Paul.

Richard

If you oiled the shaft, yes, you should have said so. Did you pump his tyres up too and tell him you checked his wheel pressures ?

 

[Piers]

Would I be right in my guess? Symptoms: 10 amp discharge when I turn the key to start, but no turning of the engine. I have re-made all the connections at the batteries without result. I have banged the back end of the starter-motor with a spanner and got normal starting. This has happened twice now, with several normal starts before and after each refusal. Intermittent faults are always scary: advice, please, on what I should do next.

One of the most common causes of the solenoid energising but the starter not turning, is a poor neutral connection from the battery to the engine. Why? The current draw required to turn the engine is huge and if the neutral connection to the engine is not really good (often corroded or rusty) the operating current will be unable to be drawn. Hence, the solenoid clicks in, but no starter. It's a simple check to make.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I do not. Greasing the piston is a bad idea.

Unless you have a good source for that, I think I'll stick with the manufacturers' advice.

 

[jsl]

Poor neutral connection is an 'attractive' suggestion, since I could obviously deal with that myself. Is there a way of checking that it's the cause? Oh, yes: check for resistance. I've got a multimeter. But I'd love to be told exactly where to do the measuring.

 

[Piers]

Poor neutral connection is an 'attractive' suggestion, since I could obviously deal with that myself. Is there a way of checking that it's the cause? Oh, yes: check for resistance. I've got a multimeter. But I'd love to be told exactly where to do the measuring.

Hi jsl. The only real way is to disconnect the neutral wire from the engine, clean everything until they shine (connector and engine connector) and reassemble. A multimeter won't do it because the starter load isn't there.

 

[jsl]

Ok: that's easy: thanks, Piers. The only trouble is that I won't necessarily know whether the clean-up has done the trick - unless I wait for a non-starting incident and then do the clean-up and then discover that all is well. And even that would not be conclusive, I suppose.

 

[<152587>]

One of the most common causes of the solenoid energising but the starter not turning, is a poor neutral connection from the battery to the engine. Why? The current draw required to turn the engine is huge and if the neutral connection to the engine is not really good (often corroded or rusty) the operating current will be unable to be drawn. Hence, the solenoid clicks in, but no starter. It's a simple check to make.

Easy, set meter to 20 volt scale, connect neg lead to battery neg post. Connect pos lead to engine block important to ensure clean connection. Invoke start button meter should read zero if connections are good. Any reading will indicate voltage dropbacross the cable ie if meter reads 12v then no continuity exists. I have already suggested some checks to isolate the fault between the start motor and the solenoid but it appears you have chosen to disregard the advise.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Easy, set meter to 20 volt scale, connect neg lead to battery neg post. Connect pos lead to engine block important to ensure clean connection. Invoke start button meter should read zero if connections are good. Any reading will indicate voltage dropbacross the cable ie if meter reads 12v then no continuity exists. I have already suggested some checks to isolate the fault between the start motor and the solenoid but it appears you have chosen to disregard the advise.

Your checks seem a little flawed to me. If he connects a voltmeter to the 8mm battery cable terminal he'll get battery voltage without engaging the starter. Surely, all he needs to do is to connect the voltmeter to the output terminal and hit the key. If he gets battery voltage and no cranking, your brush theory could well be correct ?

 

[jsl]

And just to complicate the issue, I don't think I have enough hands to make these connections AND turn the starter-key.

So far, I have had no opportunity to act on any of this very helpful advice - but I am grateful all the same.

 

[VicS]

Your checks seem a little flawed to me. If he connects a voltmeter to the 8mm battery cable terminal he'll get battery voltage without engaging the starter. Surely, all he needs to do is to connect the voltmeter to the output terminal and hit the key. If he gets battery voltage and no cranking, your brush theory could well be correct ?

Third Engines aim is to look for volts drop between the negative battery post and the cylinder block while a high current is flowing Ie while cranking) . Ideally it should be zero but might be a fraction of a volt but any more indicates a bad negative connection.