Brent Swain
N/A
Cruiser Log has one, as does Cruising Forum along many with others I have seen.
Steelboats
- Thread starter Wansworth
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Cruiser Log has one, as does Cruising Forum along many with others I have seen.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
I will try to sum up what is the root of BS's love and almost fanantical adherence to the school of "steel is the only thing for going outside the marina".
He is $H1t scared of sinking.
Sinking is something that sensible sailors know might happen, but as john morris uk has stated-without any contradiction I note-that the numbers of GRP boats that do sink on passage is REALLY insignificant, most take precautions like good chartwork, keeping watch and having a liferaft aboard in case the worst happens.
I have accepted that for serious passage making and liveaboard in challenging places steel is a top material.
Note that BS-I agree with you.
But as far more-by a factor of hundreds to one I suspect-GRP yachts are used quite happily and safely for the same job, perhaps BS might be magnanimous enough to agree with that simple truth.
But I somehow doubt he will.
For example, the several Nicholson 55's that the trainees and crews used at the Joint Services Adventurous Sail Training Centre in Portsmouth used for what-over 20 years?-were excellent for the job they did worldwide.
They have pensioned most of these off now and have 60 and 67 foot steel boats IIRC in the fleet, but the Nics gave stirling service over many years and covered uncountable sea miles collectively.
Not bad for Toy Boats navigated by Marina Queens...…………………………...
He is $H1t scared of sinking.
Sinking is something that sensible sailors know might happen, but as john morris uk has stated-without any contradiction I note-that the numbers of GRP boats that do sink on passage is REALLY insignificant, most take precautions like good chartwork, keeping watch and having a liferaft aboard in case the worst happens.
I have accepted that for serious passage making and liveaboard in challenging places steel is a top material.
Note that BS-I agree with you.
But as far more-by a factor of hundreds to one I suspect-GRP yachts are used quite happily and safely for the same job, perhaps BS might be magnanimous enough to agree with that simple truth.
But I somehow doubt he will.
For example, the several Nicholson 55's that the trainees and crews used at the Joint Services Adventurous Sail Training Centre in Portsmouth used for what-over 20 years?-were excellent for the job they did worldwide.
They have pensioned most of these off now and have 60 and 67 foot steel boats IIRC in the fleet, but the Nics gave stirling service over many years and covered uncountable sea miles collectively.
Not bad for Toy Boats navigated by Marina Queens...…………………………...
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I have looked at those and not found what you claim is there. In fact in a previous thread when you were peddling this nonsense, I analysed the so called losses and failed to find any definitive evidence - most were reports of missing boats which were subsequently accounted for.
If you are going to make these outrageous claims you need to provide convincing detailed documentary evidence. Losses of boats and lives are serious issues and need to be treated with respect.
You do not do this by making unsubstantiated claims which is why YOU tend not to be treated with any respect or seriousness.
You are just a charlatan with a loud voice.
Brent Swain
N/A
Yes , I had self steering, but the rudder improvements made it work much better.
Sounds like you have far more maintenance than I do. Sounds like you are doing something wrong, which I am doing right. And you say it is the other way around? Doesn't sound like it, unless one seeks more maintenance time. Then they would do best to get their advice from you.
What kind of epoxy are you using? How many coats? Primer? Any wood ( dead vegetation) on deck, or on the outside of the boat? How many zincs?
Post some pictures of troublesome spots.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
If you digested the information posted previously about my steel boat you would have remembered it cost me very little, spends 8 months every year alongside while I am at home in the UK with my GRP Toy Boat.
Of course it needs maintaining, it a sodding boat. If I had had the experience with steel boats that you have, I would have built it differently so, like your boat, it was less maintenance intensive. But I purchased it very cheaply as is, and I consider it good value. Gets me on the water and was used for some considerable time to live aboard before we got our apartment in Wellington. Sails OK too considering it weighs in at almost 8 tons with empty tanks.
But, if it were GRP, a power wash, new antifoul, service the engine and off we go sailing.
The vessel was built in 1986, so it is 34 years old. If the windows had been installed on the outside there would have been no lip to corrode.
I'm not doing anything wrong Brent, except wasting my time talking on here to someone who is incapable of rational debate.
Brent Swain
N/A
You are talking to someone with over 40 years of steel boat experience, in building, designing, maintaining, living aboard and ocean cruising in steel boats, who you deride as having it all wrong, compared to your vastly greater steel boat experience. That shows a complete inability to be rational, on your part.
Are there many people living on boats in New Zealand these days?
Brent Swain
N/A
Relatively safe?I agree. But nowhere near as safe as a steel boat. Any plastic boat ocean cruiser who says he has never had any apprehension about hitting things and sinking on a dark, moonless night while doing hull speed, is either lying or incredibly dense.
At Cabo San Lucas in Dec 1982 a whole fleet of plastic boats was destroyed on the beach.The one steel ocean cruiser, Bernard's Joshua, still sails, despite having a plastic 40 footer pound itself to bits on top of her. A good comparison of toughness?
Of course, some here say it never happened, because I didn't keep a 36 year old magazine article about it. The same people who claim I don't have credibility, the same people who claim plastic is as tough as steel!
The best navigation skills wont show you where the floating debris ,like logs and containers are. How do you keep a watch for them singlehanded ,or in fog too thick to see the bow?
On Newfie schooners in fog that thick, they didn't bother to stand watch, as you couldn't see past the bow anyway. If you could you still are unlikely to see a log or container barely awash.
I remember once, sailing north from Hawaii. I was in my bunk when I hit something so solid it threw be from my bunk. Had I not been in a steel hull, I would have died then, in my 20's . Makes it very relevant to me! That kind of thing has happened to me more than once. No it was not documented. Why would it be, or thousands of similar incidents, on other boats?
A Spencer 35 named "Watecolours" disappeared without a trace sailing from Hawaii to BC a couple of summers ago. The same skipper had another Spencer 35 sink off the great barrier reef, when the engine broke it's flimsy Yanmar mounts and the engine punched a hole in the hull. No, I don't keep many years worth of newspapers aboard my 31 footer.
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bbg
Well-Known Member
No it isn't. Steel rusts. GRP doesn't.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Brent Swain
N/A
Here is part of a post from the thread "Steel Yachts" on this site.
Our yacht is a New Zealand 43ft Ganley design - now 10 years old. We have been cruising since 2007 (ex NZ) and now in Alaska. Maintenance consists of 2 or 3 days concentrated effort each year. This September we repainted the cockpit to get rid of annoying dings, paint worn back to fairing filler on back of seats etc. Another year we repainted the decks with new anti-slip after grinding out and filling a few rust spots. We don't tend to do much on-going touch up. After a long ocean passage there tends to be a bit of rust staining on deck as previously unseen little dings bleed with the concentrated salt socking. But a hose off and brush down with a solution of muriatic acid after a passage takes that away. We carry the 2-part epoxy paint, epoxy filler etc with us.
For us, the advantages of steel far outweigh the disadvantages. It is no surprise that a large proportion of NZ yachts heading offshore to the Pacific are steel with the risk of reef encounters being very real. The main island locations are fine and well enough chartered, but if you venture away from the well trodden routes the chances are you will hit a few unmarked reefs or even spend a night on one. In a steel yacht that is a non-issue. Here are some of our experiences where steel has stood us in good stead based on 4 years experience:
- one tide spent on a reef in Northern PNG - no damage
- 3 days against a concrete wharf in Japan as a typhoon swept through - grazed paint layers off down to fairing but no hull damage
- two encounters with 5 to 7m long logs floating just under the surface in Alaska and British Columbia - both brought the yacht to full stop from 7 or 8 knots but no damage sustained to the hull
- encounter with another steel yacht in 1 metre swells in an open roadstead in PNG after mooring buoy let go and the two boats grated together unattended for 10 minutes until separated - 2 broken stantions, section of rub rail pulled off but no hull or deck damage
- pushing through bergy bits to the face of glaciers in Alaska - a steel hull can easily take on bits of floating ice of several hundred kg and push them out of the way with no damage.
Do check the inside of any steel yacht you are looking to buy. First signs of rust appear on inside corners of steel ribs and strings where small amounts of water can be held. Insulation at least down tot he water line is a must both to keep cool and warm, but primarily to stop condensation which leads to rust by constant dripping down the inside of the hull.
Peter
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?251114-Steel-Yachts#Mihd4oZCTSW212s0.99
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?251114-Steel-Yachts#SKsF1hTSL6UhSK8g.99
Our yacht is a New Zealand 43ft Ganley design - now 10 years old. We have been cruising since 2007 (ex NZ) and now in Alaska. Maintenance consists of 2 or 3 days concentrated effort each year. This September we repainted the cockpit to get rid of annoying dings, paint worn back to fairing filler on back of seats etc. Another year we repainted the decks with new anti-slip after grinding out and filling a few rust spots. We don't tend to do much on-going touch up. After a long ocean passage there tends to be a bit of rust staining on deck as previously unseen little dings bleed with the concentrated salt socking. But a hose off and brush down with a solution of muriatic acid after a passage takes that away. We carry the 2-part epoxy paint, epoxy filler etc with us.
For us, the advantages of steel far outweigh the disadvantages. It is no surprise that a large proportion of NZ yachts heading offshore to the Pacific are steel with the risk of reef encounters being very real. The main island locations are fine and well enough chartered, but if you venture away from the well trodden routes the chances are you will hit a few unmarked reefs or even spend a night on one. In a steel yacht that is a non-issue. Here are some of our experiences where steel has stood us in good stead based on 4 years experience:
- one tide spent on a reef in Northern PNG - no damage
- 3 days against a concrete wharf in Japan as a typhoon swept through - grazed paint layers off down to fairing but no hull damage
- two encounters with 5 to 7m long logs floating just under the surface in Alaska and British Columbia - both brought the yacht to full stop from 7 or 8 knots but no damage sustained to the hull
- encounter with another steel yacht in 1 metre swells in an open roadstead in PNG after mooring buoy let go and the two boats grated together unattended for 10 minutes until separated - 2 broken stantions, section of rub rail pulled off but no hull or deck damage
- pushing through bergy bits to the face of glaciers in Alaska - a steel hull can easily take on bits of floating ice of several hundred kg and push them out of the way with no damage.
Do check the inside of any steel yacht you are looking to buy. First signs of rust appear on inside corners of steel ribs and strings where small amounts of water can be held. Insulation at least down tot he water line is a must both to keep cool and warm, but primarily to stop condensation which leads to rust by constant dripping down the inside of the hull.
Peter
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?251114-Steel-Yachts#Mihd4oZCTSW212s0.99
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?251114-Steel-Yachts#SKsF1hTSL6UhSK8g.99
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Brent Swain
N/A
So give us a rundown on how many decades you have been living the cruising lifestyle on your steel boat, compared to my 42 years, so we can all judge how much more you know what you are talking about, compared to me.
Plastic beach bottles don't rust , neither do poly tupper ware containers, but I wouldn't choose one to go to sea in.
dom
Well-Known Member
Somewhat tangential point, but I've noticed how well connected you seem to be and was wondering about the best sat phone voice/data package for the Pacific. I'm guessing Inmarsat's geostationary satellites have lower data drops than Iridium, but possibly a bit low in the sky when you're very north?
Which system/combination do you use as it is seems to work very smoothly?
rotrax
Well-Known Member
He is off again.
Brent-I have stated quite clearly that I AM IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT WITH YOU!
Steel is a very good material to build boats from, cruise in out of the way places and have inherent strength. See- I've said it again!
I am not interested in your 42 years of living aboard and cruising. It is to me a matter of supreme indifference.
The point that pisses me off about you is the way you deride others with a different point of view, or deride those who choose a GRP vessel.
I have NEVER said anything to deride your chosen vessel-its your pride and joy, and long may it be so.
So, in future please don't refer to my boat as a Toy Boat and to me as a Marina Queen. My UK boat is a serious bit of kit, beautifully built in Florida and it does everything I want it too except sail a 10 KTS in 8KTS of wind.
Last year we exceeded 1600 NM around South and West Ireland, this year almost 1500 MN in the English channel and Northern France.
I would not change my boat for yours and it would have to be an extremely well equipped steel boat in fantastic condition for me to even consider a change.
You live the lifestyle you wish, as do I. My boat took me four years of research before I paid what for me, was a great deal of money. It is what I chose and is ideal for my purpose.
And I sail this fragile GRP deathtrap substantial mileages in some of the most challenging waters in the world. You mentioned Tom Cunliffe recently. He told me that if you can sail in the English Channel, you can sail anywhere.
You are never going to change your attitude, you appear to have a seriously one track-or should that be one material-mind.
So, you sail your tin can and I'll sail my Toy Boat, and we will say no more about it.
Brent-I have stated quite clearly that I AM IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT WITH YOU!
Steel is a very good material to build boats from, cruise in out of the way places and have inherent strength. See- I've said it again!
I am not interested in your 42 years of living aboard and cruising. It is to me a matter of supreme indifference.
The point that pisses me off about you is the way you deride others with a different point of view, or deride those who choose a GRP vessel.
I have NEVER said anything to deride your chosen vessel-its your pride and joy, and long may it be so.
So, in future please don't refer to my boat as a Toy Boat and to me as a Marina Queen. My UK boat is a serious bit of kit, beautifully built in Florida and it does everything I want it too except sail a 10 KTS in 8KTS of wind.
Last year we exceeded 1600 NM around South and West Ireland, this year almost 1500 MN in the English channel and Northern France.
I would not change my boat for yours and it would have to be an extremely well equipped steel boat in fantastic condition for me to even consider a change.
You live the lifestyle you wish, as do I. My boat took me four years of research before I paid what for me, was a great deal of money. It is what I chose and is ideal for my purpose.
And I sail this fragile GRP deathtrap substantial mileages in some of the most challenging waters in the world. You mentioned Tom Cunliffe recently. He told me that if you can sail in the English Channel, you can sail anywhere.
You are never going to change your attitude, you appear to have a seriously one track-or should that be one material-mind.
So, you sail your tin can and I'll sail my Toy Boat, and we will say no more about it.
Brent Swain
N/A
I used only ham radio and SSB. Worked well.
bbg
Well-Known Member
I only need to point to the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people / couples "living the cruising lifestyle" in GRP boats (which you pejoratively refer to as plastic) to show that steel is NOT the best material. It certainly isn't for them.
Steel rusts. Most people who choose steel do so because they can't afford a proper boat.
Just sayin'.
SlowlyButSurely
Well-Known Member
That's right, proper wooden boats are expensive these days.
GHA
Well-Known Member
Where did you get the data to come to that conclusion?
Certainly doesn't tally up with many long distance long term cruisers, probably the only area where steel really does come into it's own with criusers choosing the material which will look after you well off the beaten track with no outside help.
Brent Swain
N/A
" Proper " boat is defined by what your priorities are. If impressing the Joneses, at the cost of safety, is your priority ,then plastic or wood is "proper. If asking no questions and not thinking ,but just doing what everyone else is doing, and believing what every one around you believes , then stock plastic is "proper." Just as sure as believing the world was flat, and the sun and planets revolve around it, was once considered "Proper."
If safety, and freedom from worry about hitting things in the night ,if the ability to survive a severe grounding in big surf, a collision with a freighter, rocks , etc, zero thru hull problems or deck leaks , zero cleats and zero fittings,working loose and leaking ,or breaking off altogether, if the ability to take a 360 rollover with no leaks or danger to the hull and decks is your priority , then plastic is anything but "Proper." (Yes GRP means glass reinforced PLASTIC!) Then only steel is "proper."
Many people who prefer steel are extremely experienced cruisers, including a lot of my clients. Anyone who wants a plastic boat can have one for very little money. Some are even being given away. No, the cost of a plastic boat has nothing to do with people choosing steel. Steel boats built by more traditional methods than mine are very expensive, yet some go that route anyway ,for the safety it offers. They wisely choose steel, for the reasons given above.
For the safety conscious, and the practical, there is no such thing as a "Proper" wooden boat.
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Brent Swain
N/A
Here is another interesting post from the Steel yachts thread.
Brent Swain
N/A
Many living enviously of those in good steel boats , as many of them have told me.
Brent Swain
N/A
Another good quote from the "Steel yachts" thread.
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