Brent Swain
N/A
Low maintenance plastic boat! In completely sheltered water, zero swell, on soft mud, breaking up under it's own weight!
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Steelboats
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Brent Swain
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I’ve no idea what point you are making. Any boat that’s abandoned ends up looking like a wreck. So what?
Brent Swain
N/A
The quoted post implied that only happens to steel boats.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Really? The best I can say about that interpretation of the post you are referring to and your reaction is ‘opinions differ’.
Which boat will look clean and sparkling after a few minutes with a pressure washer?
rotrax
Well-Known Member
It was my post Brent, from a long time ago, not john morris uk's post.
If you read my post again, I implied no such thing. I specifically said "For leisure boaters , steel is a maintenance liability. " I still believe this to be true-after a hard day today in Evans Bay Boatyard, Wellington NZ removing the windows in my steel boat prior to rectifying the corroded apertures.
Any neglected vessel will suffer badly from being abandoned, as the two you posted clearly show.
The vessels I mentioned in my old post were not yet abandoned. Last time I went up the top end of Portsmouth harbour one had gone, one looked better, two were still on the slippery slope of being uneconomical to make good. In my club in Portsmouth Harbour there are over eighty GRP boats, many from the mid seventies. Some owners are now in their 80's, not sailing or maintaining much, but their GRP boats are still looking good and giving good service as weekend cottages. None are wrecks-the club wont have wrecks in the marina-but are still looking OK for almost 45 years old. Some have faded gelcoat, red goes pink, blue goes chalky and white loses its gloss. Many are lifted and put in the yard for the winter and the weekend cottage ones still look OK underneath and require no more than a scrub and coat of antifoul.
Horses for courses Brent. Steel is a strong durable material, simple to work with.
It has shortcomings in some areas, excels in others.
The same as GRP.
DownWest
Well-Known Member
Only in your mind, Brent. The rest of posters here accept that GRP has maintainance too. Just that steel has potentially far greater problems and that is reflected in how few there are about compared with GRP.
You have a point of view, unfortunately you have stated it over and over again, with a very narrow range of examples to 'prove' your points, so naturally people get irritated, especially when you imply they are idiots to choose GRP and are at risk of dying if they go outside the marina.
As for not attacking posters, you have done it frequently, rather than argue the point in a rational manner.
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Brent Swain
N/A
Can anyone show where I suggested that steel is the only option for marina queens , and occasional weekend use? I have repeatedly stated that plastic is best for such use , (which you never read ) but steel is far better for full time cruising, as a way of life, use, but not as good as plastic ,for occasional weekend toy use, as you imply. Yes, plastic can and is used or offshore cruising ,but steel is much safer, and less maintenance in that use, and thus a better choice.
Heyerdahl's Kon Tiki was used for an eastern Pacific crossing, but that fact did not automatically make it the ideal vessel for the job of making such a crossing.
Ask any survivor of any collision caused sinking of a plastic boat, if the toughness of steel matters.
Heyerdahl's Kon Tiki was used for an eastern Pacific crossing, but that fact did not automatically make it the ideal vessel for the job of making such a crossing.
Ask any survivor of any collision caused sinking of a plastic boat, if the toughness of steel matters.
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rotrax
Well-Known Member
So Brent, in your tiny steel based mind, you are happy to deride and belittle THOUSANDS-perhaps hundreds of thousands-of GRP boat owners by calling them Marina Queens and owners of Toy Boats?
For your information-but you know this already-more GRP boats are involved currently in serious voyages world wide than steel boats.
Now describe these world girdling men and women for us. We know what you think of their chosen vessels, but I am sure they would be pleased to hear what the worlds leading expert on cruising and living aboard steel boats has to say about them.
How many more times must I tell you how impressed I am with your ability to build a steel yacht on a beach or in a field for next to nothing and go sailing and living aboard in it. Well done, you also have a tough strong vessel that is ideal for your use.
But not everyone wants a boat like yours, for many reasons. I certainly don't, the steel one I have is labour intensive enough thank you.
So stop boring the arse off us and give it a rest.
Your boats are a universal panacea and the best sailboat ever, I know this because for the last two years you have not stopped telling us they are...…………………………….
Brent Swain
N/A
My current boat is my third offshore boat. My first , was designed by a world famous designer, and tank tested in the Davidson lab , in New York, one of the top tank testing facilities in the world.
It was a piece of crap. My own improvements were a huge improvement over what the original designer drew. So I designed my next boat myself ,a far better boat .
My current boat I also designed myself ,an even greater improvement. After 34 years and several Pacific crossings in her, as well as mostly full time cruising in BC waters the rest of that time, there is very little I would change in her, and if I won $millions in the lottery, I wouldn't change boats. Most people I have built boats for, feel the same, and generally hang on to them for decades, including those who could afford any boat, certainly a stock plastic boat. Many have upgraded from stock plastic boats.
So you say I should say they are pieces of crap, to appease you, and not upset anyone? How may designers will say what they are putting down on a drawing board is all wrong, just to appease you, and not upset you? ( Man, what an over inflated ego you have!) If they believed that, don't you think they would change what they are putting down on a drawing board? How dense would one have to be, to not get that ?
If I believed what I am designing is wrong, don't you think I would do it differently? How dense does one have to be, to not figure that out?
I cannot tell a lie ( as you suggest I should) .My boats are as well designed as I believe they can be. If I believed otherwise, don't you think I would design them otherwise?
I cant understand why you have so much trouble grasping the last line. The concept doesn't appear all that difficult.
I have never claimed my boats are a universal panacea for everyone.Those are your words, not mine. I have just listed the advantages for my particular use ,and for those with a similar use. Your suggestion that listing any advantages for any boat, amounts to calling that boat a panacea for all boaters, would make us all guilty of that , in your tunnel vision, "either or ", way of thinking.
Thanks for reminding me why I got out of New Zealand, even tho I could have legally stayed indefinitely.( scary thought)
It was a piece of crap. My own improvements were a huge improvement over what the original designer drew. So I designed my next boat myself ,a far better boat .
My current boat I also designed myself ,an even greater improvement. After 34 years and several Pacific crossings in her, as well as mostly full time cruising in BC waters the rest of that time, there is very little I would change in her, and if I won $millions in the lottery, I wouldn't change boats. Most people I have built boats for, feel the same, and generally hang on to them for decades, including those who could afford any boat, certainly a stock plastic boat. Many have upgraded from stock plastic boats.
So you say I should say they are pieces of crap, to appease you, and not upset anyone? How may designers will say what they are putting down on a drawing board is all wrong, just to appease you, and not upset you? ( Man, what an over inflated ego you have!) If they believed that, don't you think they would change what they are putting down on a drawing board? How dense would one have to be, to not get that ?
If I believed what I am designing is wrong, don't you think I would do it differently? How dense does one have to be, to not figure that out?
I cannot tell a lie ( as you suggest I should) .My boats are as well designed as I believe they can be. If I believed otherwise, don't you think I would design them otherwise?
I cant understand why you have so much trouble grasping the last line. The concept doesn't appear all that difficult.
I have never claimed my boats are a universal panacea for everyone.Those are your words, not mine. I have just listed the advantages for my particular use ,and for those with a similar use. Your suggestion that listing any advantages for any boat, amounts to calling that boat a panacea for all boaters, would make us all guilty of that , in your tunnel vision, "either or ", way of thinking.
Thanks for reminding me why I got out of New Zealand, even tho I could have legally stayed indefinitely.( scary thought)
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DownWest
Well-Known Member
Out of interest, what was your first boat?
DW
DW
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Its been shown on here that not only are GRP boats extremely strong and don't normally sink when in a collision, but the number of boats that actually sink is vanishingly small and statistically insignificant. So perhaps you should stop making this silly argument. It's an emotional argument with little basis in reality.
Of course the couple of families that allowed themselves to get run down and their boat sank have strong feelings on the subject, but that doesn't make your emotional argument any more relevant. The truth is that steel boats sink just as well as GRP boats and as there are many thousands more GRP boats sailing round the world than steel boats which makes the statistics of one or two cases become irrelevant.
To put it another way, I might pluck figures out of the air and point out the number of steel boats that are no longer seaworthy or the number of steel boats that sink for all the relevance this has.
And before you start citing steel boats that have survived being pounded on coral reefs; it might say more about the navigational inadequacies of those who drive them than the construction methods - it makes as much statistical sense...
When you have a sense of balance in your arguments, and when you can justify your designs with some calculations (I'm still waiting for sufficient drawings for a proper naval architect to analyse exactly what you claim) then perhaps people will take you seriously?
NormanS
Well-Known Member
In the world that we live in now, where "Recycling" is the new buzz word, steel boats have one huge advantage over ones made of GRP. (Just thought that I would contribute something which isn't personally antagonistic, unlike most of the recent posts on here). 
rotrax
Well-Known Member
In the world that we live in now, where "Recycling" is the new buzz word, steel boats have one huge advantage over ones made of GRP. (Just thought that I would contribute something which isn't personally antagonistic, unlike most of the recent posts on here).
Correct, Norman S-that is one significant advantage.
Brent Swain
N/A
A Pipe Dream cruising sloop ,as pictured in the book "Skenes Elements of Yacht Design ",by Francis S Kinney. Like many boats of that era, she had a short keel with a well raked rudder attached to the back of the keel.As an absolute beginner, with almost zero sailing experience, it looked to me to be too far foreward, and I visualized a skeg hung rudder 6 feet further aft, but realizing my lack of experience, I deferred to the designer, a big mistake. After s zig zaging all the way to New Zealand , I made the change , and the improvement was huge on subsequent cruising to Noumea, Vanuatu and Fiji. The change in balance was minimal. It made her far more controlable, but she still had abysmally poor directional stability. Kinney makes no mention of the effect of hull shape on directional stability. Harrison Butler figured that out in 1935, and wrote a book on the subject, and on your side of the pond, designers understood it , but yanks remained ignorant on the matter , until quite recently. Some still don't understand it. A guy I met in Mexico, on a Tartan 37, decided to upgrade to one of my boats,an came for a sail on one. We were standing on the foredeck talking , when he asked " Who is steering" ?
"No one "I said .
He said "This I gotta see." He was amazed to see the boat hold a course like she was on rails with no on at the helm. He said his Tartan would veer off course in an instant , if you left the helm. Other yanks were equally amazed at a boat with such directional stability, They don't design them that way in the US.Unlike the Brits, they don't know how to.
I have heard that rudder change has made huge improvements to similar short keeled traditional boats with keel hung rudders. I would highly recommend it to anyone with such an underwater profile
Brent Swain
N/A
I was rafted to plastic boat from Connecticut once in Comox. I was building a steel boat, and invited the skipper to drop by and learn the process. He didn't bother.
Later off Costa Rica, he hit a container in the night and banged 4 ft hole in her, and quickly stepped into a life raft as she sank quickly. Suddenly,. he took a keen interest in a steel boat, and began planning one for his next boat.
I was at a party recently where a guy told me he was sailing off Baja in the night,and his plastic boat was hit by a whale, and sank quickly, leaving him in a dinghy in the night . When I said his boat should have been steel, he strongly agreed. I met an Aussie steel boat in Nuka Hiva which had come from Galapagos, and had regularly hit whales .No worries.
There is no way a whale will sink a steel boat, as the one off S Africa, which had a whale land on deck, clearly proves. You couldn't hit a boat much harder with a whale.
The Gringo would have been cut in half , had she been plastic instead of steel.
The list of missing at sea on some sites, is very long.
The reason there are so may more plastic boats out cruising, is because of lies and misinformation about the strength of GRP and the fact that few understand what a steel boat can take. The suggestion that a plastic boat can come anywhere near the toughness of steel is totally ludicrous, dangerously irresponsible, and life threatening. Such disinformation cost the Sleavin family their lives, and we will never know how many more.
In 1975 , the year I lost my first boat on a reef ( after breaking free from a mooring, while I was ashore), I read there were 35 lost that year on the Tuamotus alone.
Yes, plastic collisions with hard stuff, is not a problem if you are completely infallible ,and can see containers and other debris awash, on dark, foggy, moonless night. Does that describe you ?
Superman lives ?
Good seamanship is leaving as little as possible to chance and luck, such as a hull material which is most forgiving of mistakes (unless you are "infallible.")
John, I sent you the drawings long ago.
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Sorry but I’ll call you out on most of that. You’ve quoted a few people/families that you’ve quoted before and I’ve explained how statistically insignificant these are.
Vague references to the ‘many boats that have been lost’ need references. We’ve had this discussion before and despite extensive research I’ve not found any reports of these multiple losses of GRP yachts at sea. If you keep claiming multiple tragedies of yachts lost at sea, please provide some references. You can’t and won’t because they don’t exist.
Finally no one is claiming a GRP boat is as strong as a well built steel one. But you’ve been shown that GRP boats are incredibly strong and don’t break up easily at all. It’s not a matter of whether GRP is stronger or weaker but whether it’s strong enough.
Brent Swain
N/A
Yes .a well built plastic boat ( becoming ever rarer) is strong enough ; at sea, but not if it hits anything hard
You say every single incident is documented, and readily available? From decades ago? Where do you suggest I look? How much will you pay me for my time?
You say the long lists of missing at sea, on many sites are lying , and you know more about them and where they are? Tell their families that.
You say the freighter collision with the Gringo didn't happen? The pictures are elsewhere on this site! You say a plastic boat wouldn't have been cut in half by that collision?
You say the whale landing on the steel boat deck didn't happen? The pictures are on this site! You say that wouldn't have damaged a plastic boat? You say that was the skippers fault?
What a crock!
You say the many people at that party, who told me about finding the guy who's boat had been shnk by a whale were all liars? You say you know more about what happened and what didn't happen than the guy in the dinghy over his sunken boat? Tell him it didn't happen, an his boat didn't sink. Then tell him where to find it.
What a crock!
This reminds me of a conversation I had with our highways minister recently .We were talking about riding bike facing traffic, rather than with traffic.I was told that statistics give you a higher chance of dying in a collision facing traffic. I agreed. Now what are the statistics of those who avoided a collision facing traffic, because they could see the distracted and drunk drivers coming, and could take evasive action. None exist , because none are taken, just like statistics, and records of steel boats which hit rocks at hull speed, with little or no damage. Thus statistics and records are misleading and tell a totally false story in many cases. Where would one find records of a steel boat hitting a whale or a rock, and suffering no damage? People who seek to mislead , exploit this to prop up arguments which don't stand up to logic.
I'm reminded of the increasingly common statement on the internet.
No pictures , didn't happen!
French revolution? No photos? Didn't happen!
Voyages of Columbus? No photos ? Didnt happen!
Age of dinosaurs ?No photos? Didn't happen!
Sounds a lot like "No documentation, didn't happen!
What a crock!
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Brent, take a deep breath and stop ranting. I haven’t said any of those extraordinary things didn’t happen.
However you drop into the middle of your examples lines such as:
I’m asking you to give some references to these ‘long lists of missing at sea’.
We’ve been here before and they don’t exist. So stop pretending that they do or give some references to these many GRP boats lost mysteriously at sea.
Brent Swain
N/A
All progress since the stone age was done by those not accepting the "normal Proper" way of doing things and thinking of their own solutions, often being ridiculed and jeered at by luddite ways of thinking.
"Why Trog invent wheel ? Drag "Proper way." Drag good enough for Grandpa, drag good enough for Trog .Trog lazy!"
You can always judge the value of advice, by what it has done for the person offering it.
"Why Trog invent wheel ? Drag "Proper way." Drag good enough for Grandpa, drag good enough for Trog .Trog lazy!"
You can always judge the value of advice, by what it has done for the person offering it.
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