Steel Hull Painting Problem in France

[sk8rboy]

We left our 40ft x 12ft steel cruiser in a boatyard (with a good reputation) in France with an agreement to have the hull sanded, undercoated and antifouled x 3 coats. It is mostly going to be on the canals.

OH went over and they said they were nearly finished but upon inspection he does not think that they have sanded properly. There is flaky paint and he had left a bit of blu tac on the hull and it was still there and painted over. He told them he didnt think that they had sanded as also there was no residual grit, dust lying around anywhere. The workman became angry and said we dont have to pay for the sanding then! He also said we were getting it done cheaply. We did not ask them to cut corners, just asked how much it would cost, they gave us the quote and we agreed.

The main painter is going to be looking at it tomorrow and hopefully explain what has gone on.

We are totally new to boat maintenance hence handing it over to a boatyard and feel that if the prep hasnt been done properly then the whole job is wasted.

Any advice gratefully received.

 

[electrosys]

We are totally new to boat maintenance hence handing it over to a boatyard and feel that if the prep hasnt been done properly then the whole job is wasted.

That's about the strength of it.

Grit-blasting back to grey-white, and not a finger-mark in sight before the first coat goes on is the only way of ensuring a lasting job - but then, I think you already knew that.

Bummer.

 

[Stimp]

France.... during their busy period.. I shall say no more!

 

[Pasarell]

Certainly sounds as though they haven't done what you asked and they quoted for so there should be a substantial reduction in the bill.

If it was just the antifouling that was flaking and not the anticorrosive I disagree with the previous post that it should be blasted back to clean steel. Obviously that is great preparation but something that will only be done very occasionally. Also it would need more than a single undercoat before antifouling.

Clearly if the underlying coating is flaking any antifouling they have put on will not last as well as it would have done on a sound substrate. You should also question whether they have put the undercoat (primer?) on that you asked them to do. On this basis the reduction in the bill should be greater than just removing the sanding element.

You could check the undercoat part by cutting a flake out - be careful to not damage the anticorrosive - and peeling it back with a sharp blade to see what coats are there. A good magnifying glass or handheld microscope will make this much easier. Maplins in the UK sell a 100x microscope for about £6. The primer will almost certainly be a very different colour to both the old and new antifouling.

 

[TradewindSailor]

I never let a boatyard work on my boat unsupervised. There are too many tricks for the yard to cut corners.

1 Thinning the antifouling, or not stirring it properly ..... Result : thin, worthless coats of colour. Advantage to them is that it's quicker to apply, and allows them to sell on the remainder of the AF to the next client. Always tell them to apply so many litres of antifouling, rather than number of coats ..... after all its the quantity of AF that you want.

2 Bad prep. It's hidden so why do any? If the paint falls off there's plenty of excuses like 'it's the paint quality mate!'.

3 Launching the boat to soon. Every boatyard I've been in say that the boat can be launched half an hour after I've painted the places were the blocks were. This is untrue for the normal AF as it requires 8 hours or so to cure before it goes in the water.

4 If you get topsides work done, the paint can be applied so thinly that a dinghy or fenders alongside will take the paint off. All paint manufacturers provide a spec. sheet for their paint. You should insist that the paints are applied in accordance with this spec. ..... and that includes the environmental conditions.

5 Applying paint too quickly before the primer has had chance to cure.

6 Continue spraying paint the next day without keying the previous coat. Most paint specs require the paint to be applied by spray in one day.

7 etc, etc.

 

[electrosys]

If it was just the antifouling that was flaking and not the anticorrosive I disagree with the previous post that it should be blasted back to clean steel. Obviously that is great preparation but something that will only be done very occasionally. Also it would need more than a single undercoat before antifouling.

I stand corrected. Am guilty of not reading the original post carefully ...

 

[sk8rboy]

Thanks for the info.

Yes, the boatyard is very busy and I think they want us in the water. I think they hoped to have the boat launched before OH turned up!

The boat was painted 5 years ago in a swedish yard and previous owners could not supply paint codes. We pressure washed it and it looked great except for a 6 inch strip from port to starboard where the paint just flaked right off revealing immaculate steel. OH got most of the flaking off but edges of this strip were flaky.

Boatyard was going to have to sand, undercoat (2 part epoxy?) and antifoul. It is these flakes that are still present. OH was able to pull them off in front of Manager.

We are being charged for sanding discs which are serious looking bits of kit which would have easily taken off and smoothed these areas. It clearly hasn't been done.

Painter is having to explain himself this morning. I have told OH to get online and check this thread out. So thanks guys, some of it is a bit technical for me. He is on the Burgundy canal, says weather lovely at the moment...

 

[KellysEye]

Steel hulls should have at least three coats, of different colours, of underwater epoxy before antifoulong. Also if the hull was taken back to bare steel the first coat should be zinc rich epoxy, then the three coats. Any flaking paint is bad prep. I woudn't accept a discount, because it sounds as though the paintwork won't last long, get them to do it again under your supervision.

 

[sk8rboy]

Hi Kelly'seye,

What was already on, from what I could see, was a red coat with a grey coat showing through under that. So do you mean on top of that, you would do an additional three coats or if he is putting another one on it would be at least three coats that we know of ie dont know what is under the grey.

There was a suggestion of looking at a flake to see what is there but not sure how OH can do that in France.

I would agree that the bare steel would have needed something in addition to bring prepare and protect it and trused that boatyard would be taking care of that.

We are being charged 2600E for this work and boatyard says we are getting it cheaply!

Lesson for us to learn is that I/we should have asked these questions BEFORE and have made sure we were there. I had emailed them for them to let us know the start date but no reply and then there was the volcano ash.

Will phone OH now to say about bare steel treatment.

Thanks again.

 

[Conachair]

Sorry to hear of your ordeal, can´t help there I´m afraid but you can download a very good book on steel boat maintenance here...
http://www.lulu.com/product/file-do...gContext=search_results/search_shelf/center/1
I´ve been cruising on a steel yacht for 4 years now and have given up on "marine" paint. Only use industrial now, just started using ameron sealer and amerlock, seems great so far, problem is I´ll have to wait 5 years to know for sure. Good luck.

 

[KellysEye]

>What was already on, from what I could see, was a red coat with a grey coat showing through under that. So do you mean on top of that, you would do an additional three coats or if he is putting another one on it would be at least three coats that we know of ie dont know what is under the grey.

If the grey coat was showing through the red coat then the red coat is too thin. Have you asked them:
- did you rub down (sand) the original paint? I'm assuming they didn't go back to steel.
- How many coats of underwater epoxy did you put on? Ask what the epoxy was they put on and check it was for underwater use. If not definitely don't pay the bill.
- What colours were they?

Hopefully they will tell the truth so you will know exactly what they have done.

When we had our boat repainted we had her sandblasted to get rid of all the old paint.
On the hull to the waterline we had one coat zinc epoxy and three coats of underwater epoxy. On the hull and deck etc we had three coats of epoxy and twelve coats of paint (undercoat and topcoat). A number of the undercoats used microballoons with much rubbing down to get a perfect surface. So, guesswork, total coats after rubbing down was eleven to twelve. Bottom line is you can't have too much paint on a steel boat. Which means three coats under water is OK, one or two more is better.

I don't now about French prices but it seems to me that if they had done a very good job with sanding the right number of coats the price is possibly resonable.

 

[footsoldier]

Obviously the issue hinges around what scale of work you agreed with the boatyard and whether the finished job reflects the price charged.

You are inevitably on the back foot when dealing with furriners in their own country, but if you wish to go seriously head to head with them, you might try involving the equivalent of Trading Standards. The local office will be listed in the phone book under "Direction General de la consommation et repression des fraudes". Never had any dealings myself, but most people seem to be a bit in awe of them, so I have always assumed they are effective.

 

[Pasarell]

I think you need to get a good surveyor involved - quickly - preferably before you make any agreements with the yard about pricing.

The 6" wide strip that came off indicates some form of electrical problem which is impossible to identify from here. If it is not fixed it does not matter how much paint, or what type, you apply, the problem will reoccur and corrosion will be a major problem.

If you are going back to bare steel then sanding is little better than useless. As above, solve the underlying problem before throwing money at a bodge job. Once the problem is solved you will need to blast, needle gun or grind (preference in that order) before coating.

Number of coats to apply and type of product are wide and varied. What counts is film thickness and quality of product. Spraying the coating should give a higher film build than brushing or rolling but any decent yard and any decent surveyor will have a dry film thickness (dft) gauge to measure how much paint has been applied. Follow the instructions of the manufacturer and you will be OK. Earlier comment about marine v industrial materials is rubbish. Most products sold for marine use are same as used in industrial applications so don't worry about this point.

I agree that zinc rich materials are best as first coat but it does not have to be an epoxy - moisture cured urethane is just as good. After the first coat zinc is irrelevant and you want a good waterproof barrier.

Different colours for each coat make it easier to see where you are working but the key will always be to get enough material on the surface. If you don't know what you are doing get a good surveyor involved. It will be much cheaper than expensive steel replacement! I also think a surveyor who understands steel will be better than trading standards every day.

For surveyor contact details talk to the French equivalent of BMF but I can't think what they are called (it's late in Korea) or to BV, the French classification society.

Good luck!

 

[TradewindSailor]

I can't see why the 6" strip should be caused by an electrical problem. Much more likely to be caused by a rushed preparation after the supports were moved after the rest of the bottom had it's first coat or two.

 

[DownWest]

The 6" wide 'port to startboard' bit sounds like they were painting it in the lifting slings, not good.
A

If looking for a surveyor, in france they are called Expertises Maritimes. Not quite the same as in UK. But the closest you will get.

 

[xtiffer]

And the Lloyds equivalent is called Veritas.
Cheers,
Chris

 

[Sea Devil]

Not sure where you are in France - If you call in a French Surveyor he is indeed an 'expert maritime' but you may have problems with language.

This is a Brit surveyor in France and may be able to guide you in things French as well as looking at the job:-
Lt Cdr Keith Oulds B Eng(Hons), Dip Mar Sur (Y&SC)MCGI, MIIMS RN
La Keimax
Longre
Charente, 16240
France
Tel/fax: 0033(0) 545 311 869 .
Tel: 0032 (0) 65886897
Email: MaxSurveying@aol.com


Michael

 

[Pasarell]

I can't see why the 6" strip should be caused by an electrical problem. Much more likely to be caused by a rushed preparation after the supports were moved after the rest of the bottom had it's first coat or two.

The reason I think it may be electrical is because the OP said, when pressure washed, the paint came leaving "immaculate steel" underneath. This implies it was not corroded and therefore likely (but not certain of course) that there is a current present protecting the steel as an ICCP system would do.
If the steel is clean and protected when in the water it will start to corrode quickly when exposed to air, deteriorating more quickly than if no current is present.
Can't be sure so that is why I suggested someone who understands steel has a look ASAP.

 

[sk8rboy]

The strip of exposed steel made me ask if it was an electrical cause but boatyard Manager (who is a qualified engineer of somesort) said he didnt think so, that perhaps it was a rushed paint job or something not done properlywhen it was sitting in a cradle, that he would sort it out. I'm not sure if I was convinced as I mentally memorised where it is so that we could investigate further at a later date.

The sling or support hypothesis can't explain how the strip runs vertically up the inside of the two keels.

Or are you saying that the paint has come off because of a painting problem and that the steel hasnt then become damaged because it is being protected by an electrical current and that is not a bad thing but once the boat is out of the water it is a bad thing?

Passarel - How quickly would the steel deteriorate while out of the water? It's only been out and exposed for two weeks maximum.

Meanwhile, boatyard has sanded back to our original undercoat, added lots of coats of stuff on top of that and are waiting for proper drying inbetween and boat should be back in the water next week. OH has stood over them and says that they are being thorough (now!)

I dont want to be sexist but really my part of the deal is supposed to be sorting out the curtains and stuff but I do love our boat and I am very interested in its welfare, can't help but get dragged into OH's remit.

I would be very interested in contacting Lt Cdr Oulds, certainly worth a phone call.

Thanks again all. I hope other steel boat owners are getting something from this.

Thanks again everyone

 

[KellysEye]

>How quickly would the steel deteriorate while out of the water?

Bare steel starts to rust very soon (say 20 minutes). Normally after sand blasting pressurised air is used to get the dust off and painting starts immediately. The more painters the better.