A1Sailor
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What does "creased" mean?
Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).
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Brent Swain
N/A
Just that, a longitudinal dent. Where it meets a hard point, it stretches more metal ,and becomes a greater risk of holing, especially in a boat with lighter plate and more framing.
solent clown
RIP
"I have NEVER said that EVERYONE should go cruising, only that anyone can. Again, you are putting words in my mouth, so you will have something to argue against.
You seem to be saying that NO ONE should."
I do not recognise anywhere i said that chap. I asked you a genuine question about the construction method which you partially answered. I do think though that maybe you or your boats are very accident prone. Even I haven't managed to hit a freighter yet despite being moored very close to some of the worlds largest in a confined area. How you or your clients manage that in the Med is quite a feat. Did the rock get a beating too? Little wonder you extol the virtues of a steel hulk if you use it as a battering ram so often. Do you have a row of oar holes each side and a guy with a drum beating the pace "ramming speed" Ben Hur eat your heart out, here comes an origami boat. All tongue in cheek chap, I am not expert sailor, and have had my share of problems on the learning curve.
As to the original question, there happens to be a steel liveaboard a few boats down from us, lovely thing. He spends a LOT of time painting, maintaining it. Same with the gorgeous wooden motor cruiser next to it. He is unlikely to strike a reef in the solent, especially as the boat never moves, so he would have had an easier time with a grp boat. I suppose if he was going roving the planet with no charts and radio for weather reports, hitting reefs and oil tankers all the time his boat would be ideal. :encouragement: In all seriousness I get your argument about a steel boat for certain uses as you describe. That is the nub of it I guess.
I still dont think the lack of sheer panels in your monocoques is a good structural idesa, but you have cited long term use and survival of your hulls in extremis, so taking your word for all that, then your boats are tough enough, it is just not the way many others would do it. Nothing wrong with that intrinsically, but for some of us it is not how we might go about it. Learning to agree to disagree is a life skill.
You seem to be saying that NO ONE should."
I do not recognise anywhere i said that chap. I asked you a genuine question about the construction method which you partially answered. I do think though that maybe you or your boats are very accident prone. Even I haven't managed to hit a freighter yet despite being moored very close to some of the worlds largest in a confined area. How you or your clients manage that in the Med is quite a feat. Did the rock get a beating too? Little wonder you extol the virtues of a steel hulk if you use it as a battering ram so often. Do you have a row of oar holes each side and a guy with a drum beating the pace "ramming speed" Ben Hur eat your heart out, here comes an origami boat. All tongue in cheek chap, I am not expert sailor, and have had my share of problems on the learning curve.
As to the original question, there happens to be a steel liveaboard a few boats down from us, lovely thing. He spends a LOT of time painting, maintaining it. Same with the gorgeous wooden motor cruiser next to it. He is unlikely to strike a reef in the solent, especially as the boat never moves, so he would have had an easier time with a grp boat. I suppose if he was going roving the planet with no charts and radio for weather reports, hitting reefs and oil tankers all the time his boat would be ideal. :encouragement: In all seriousness I get your argument about a steel boat for certain uses as you describe. That is the nub of it I guess.
I still dont think the lack of sheer panels in your monocoques is a good structural idesa, but you have cited long term use and survival of your hulls in extremis, so taking your word for all that, then your boats are tough enough, it is just not the way many others would do it. Nothing wrong with that intrinsically, but for some of us it is not how we might go about it. Learning to agree to disagree is a life skill.
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Brent Swain
N/A
I think you have answered your own question. Boats which don't leave home have no chance of hitting anything.The more they cruise, the greater the odds. The less you have to worry about it the more you let your guard down and the greater the odds, especially if doing so has no consequences. My boats have a far greater tendency to cruise, than stay at home, as boats you have to worry about do.
The boat which it the freighter was in a pea soup fog. He said there was fog, and then there were fog balls, in which you couldn't see the bow .
Cruising the north coast, there were plenty of reports, daily, of uncharted rocks. An Alaskan in one of my boats hit several of them on his way north.
The suggestion that a boat should not be strong enough to survive such incidents, because they are not supposed to happen, is ludicrous.
Hold a piece of wood in your fingers , and hit it ,trying to break it. Now put it across two hard points and try again. Breaks far more easily.
You can hit a steel hull between frames and your sledge hammer will bounce off, without making a dent. Hit it much closer to a frame, and it will dent easily.
The boats in question would have been severely dented, had they had frames. They had no dents, Thanks to the ability of the plate to spring back, and not stretch against any hard points.
The boat which hit the barge was taking instructions from a guy with a brand new wooden boat.He immediately put a for sale sign on that one, and hired a friend to build him a steel boat.
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rotrax
Well-Known Member
I use AIS and radar to avoid other shipping and land in dense fog. When sailing in rocky areas I tend to keep well offshore which gives me a better chance of avoiding uncharted rocks.
The " AIS and Radar are too expensive " wont wash. For serious sailing they are required kit.
There are still far more GRP sailing boats giving safe and reliable service than steel ones. The sailing public is not as gullible as you appear to believe. If the potential purchasers of new boats were of the same mind as you they would have nothing to buy. For many a home build is out of the question.
There is no volume manufacturer of steel sailing boats.
I wonder why?
lpdsn
Well-Known Member
Have you considered selling navigation and ColReg courses with your designs?
By the way, I understand that if you hit a genuinely uncharted rock you get to name it. I hope you've had a word of two with your customers. After the first few they'll run out of names of their own so you can drop hints for the charting of a Brent Swain Rock here and there. Your name will live for ever.
Brent Swain
N/A
From the last page. Try reading for the answers to your questions, before posing them .
(Quote)
On of the main reasons steel cruising boats are not more popular, is because they use grossly outdated, extremely labour intensive, 1950's building methods, making new steel boats prohibitively expensive to build . Last night, I was talking to a lady I built a 31 for, decades ago, who sailed her to Mexico ,Panama ,the West Indies ,Nova Scotia, and back to the West Indies then on to England. A BC boat yard quoted $80,000 for hull and decks alone, which I did for around $3500 ,using more modern methods. Having done a lot of sailing on many boats since , including deliveries, she said the boat I built her was the best cruising boat she had ever sailed on. Cost is no assurance of a better boat. Experience and logic works far better.
Another reason is, people just don't grasp the toughness, strength, and the peace of mind that gives, when cruising in steel ( having been so consistently mislead ,by plastic fans and salesmen .
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-warm(er)-climate)/page84#ic8fgCX6bWa7b3CA.99
(Quote)
Copy and paste is sure a lot easier than retyping the same info, over and over again, for those who ask the same questions, over and over again.
Keeping " well offshore" in BC means missing the whole coast, and some fantastic cruising . Steel lets you avoid giving up some great cruising grounds, and lets you go wherever you please, wihtout that kind of paranoia . Makes pleasure boating a lot more pleasurable, and stress free.
AIS had not been invented back then.
When I first began cruising, radar cost a years wages, now it costs a week and a half's wages. However,I do know some cruisers who just can't afford it, and they should not be bared from cruising by the dictates of snobby elitism.
Underwater reefs don't show up on radar.
An Aussie boat I met was well offshore, when he hit an uncharted rock, at hull speed, off the northern BC coast. Luckily, it was steel, and only suffered scraped paint
The guy who had his boat sink under him after hitting a whale in Mexico, was a big fan of plastic , to that point. That gullibility faded quickly, at that point, when he found himself in a dinghy, at night.
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DownWest
Well-Known Member
Brent, your figures are just not believable. Firm quotes $80k against your price of $3.5? The yard is running a business, with all the overheads that implies, yet your 'modern' methods can make that difference? Not possible, even with you doing it in a field with borrowed kit.
Then there is the rest of the boat. Generally the hull is one third, fit out a third and rig a third. So, to make a boat to the same standard, you can save a bit on the hull, but the rest would be the same. Sure, you can scavage used kit, but that devalues the 'new' hull. Protecting the hull is the same cost regardless of the build system.
Van de Stadt designed a 34' hard chine yacht. If you bought the kit, the steel came pre primed with époxy and you just coated the areas by the welds. Quite a few sold and re-sellable at a reasonable price due to the respected designer. Apparently the hull can be welded up in a couple of weeks by use of a simple cradle. I know someone he built one, so not hearsay. Would he do it again? No, far cheaper and quicker to buy a used boat on the current market. Back then, there were not the cheap good boats on the market, so DIY made some sense, esp with a kit like the above. Nowdays, hardly anybody builds a boat over 20ft, it is just not economicly viable. It is not economic below 20ft either, but people do, because they want to built for the pleasure. Resale is rarely above material costs. Not steel of course, usually wood.
As for stories of people getting in situations and rushing off to get a steel boat, local guy here (I know him) bought an Amel. Top of the range GRP boat. He ran up on a reef somewhere near Australia. The boat was fine, but too far from civilisation for economic salvage. Did he come back a changed man? Nope, he went straight to Amel and ordered another one.
Nobody is questioning that a steel boat has better resistance to hitting things, but it remains a niche market with no production runs, that tells us something.The production metal boats are in aluminium, like Ovni. Why? Because, whatever you say, corrosion is a problem with steel and people will not buy second hand ones.
As for suggesting that lives are being lost because people go cruising in other material than (pref one of yours) steel boats, that is simply guess work and self promotion. You don't know what happened to them. If you get run down by a big ship (this happened to a friend recently) I doubt that being steel will save you.
Then there is the rest of the boat. Generally the hull is one third, fit out a third and rig a third. So, to make a boat to the same standard, you can save a bit on the hull, but the rest would be the same. Sure, you can scavage used kit, but that devalues the 'new' hull. Protecting the hull is the same cost regardless of the build system.
Van de Stadt designed a 34' hard chine yacht. If you bought the kit, the steel came pre primed with époxy and you just coated the areas by the welds. Quite a few sold and re-sellable at a reasonable price due to the respected designer. Apparently the hull can be welded up in a couple of weeks by use of a simple cradle. I know someone he built one, so not hearsay. Would he do it again? No, far cheaper and quicker to buy a used boat on the current market. Back then, there were not the cheap good boats on the market, so DIY made some sense, esp with a kit like the above. Nowdays, hardly anybody builds a boat over 20ft, it is just not economicly viable. It is not economic below 20ft either, but people do, because they want to built for the pleasure. Resale is rarely above material costs. Not steel of course, usually wood.
As for stories of people getting in situations and rushing off to get a steel boat, local guy here (I know him) bought an Amel. Top of the range GRP boat. He ran up on a reef somewhere near Australia. The boat was fine, but too far from civilisation for economic salvage. Did he come back a changed man? Nope, he went straight to Amel and ordered another one.
Nobody is questioning that a steel boat has better resistance to hitting things, but it remains a niche market with no production runs, that tells us something.The production metal boats are in aluminium, like Ovni. Why? Because, whatever you say, corrosion is a problem with steel and people will not buy second hand ones.
As for suggesting that lives are being lost because people go cruising in other material than (pref one of yours) steel boats, that is simply guess work and self promotion. You don't know what happened to them. If you get run down by a big ship (this happened to a friend recently) I doubt that being steel will save you.
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lpdsn
Well-Known Member
lw395
Well-Known Member
Your boats seem very accident prone.
I get the idea that frames can add stress to the hull shell where they meet.
But for a hull shell to be strong enough without support from frames, it will need to be a lot heavier.
A hull that flexes a lot and bounces off rocks is a concept that works well for a kevlar kayak, not sure how it scales up for a yacht.
We expect yacht hulls to last half a century, you have to start worrying about fatigue if anything is flexing.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Sure, it's the way you tell 'em.
I suspect the humour in the pun is way above his head...........................
rotrax
Well-Known Member
So, Brent, if the above is a true incident, it beggars the question what sort of seamen buy your boats?
It appears to me that T-boning a steel barge at hull speed is a totally avoidable incident.
Was there no one on watch, in charge of the boat?
Was no attempt made to avoid said barge, or to slow the speed of the vessel down before the impact? To turn the vessel so the impact was a glancing blow?
Please explain how such an incident could take place with a good seaman in charge.
I sail in some of the busiest waters in the world. In the last 16 seasons, about 17,000 NM covered in the English Channel, French North Coast, Scotland, Ireland and a fair bit of English Coast we have never hit another vessel in the way some of your boats have. Of course we have had the odd bump while taking a berth in a tight Marina with a fair bit of tide running, but these are everyday hazards of the areas we sail in. Portsmouth Harbour, our base, is the 5th busiest port in the UK, 24 hour operation. You would discover adrenaline is brown going in or out of the tight entrance when 40 or so vessels are in the small boat channel close to your boat, in a very swirly heavy tidal flow, there is a large Cross Channel Ferry leaving, the IOW Car Ferry is just behind followed by the high speed Fastcat passenger only one.
And when you do find a bit of clear water the only commercial hovercraft service in the world sets off from its base and cuts across the bouyed channel at 40KTS.
And we have never hit anything while on the water, as oposed to taking or leaving a mooring.
But T-boning a steel barge!
Poor seamanship of the highest order! No wonder they require steel as a building material..........................
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Brent Swain
N/A
The guy had no expeince with sloops.He was getting directions from someone equally inexperienced who said "Just sail along side and I can stop her." He forgot to ease the main,and was broad reaching directly at a wooden fishboat tied to the barge. Had to round up and T bone the barge to stop her. No damage whatsoever.
So you claim that a designer and builder is responsible for what all future owners do with their boats, and has absolute control over that?
You claim that plastic boat owners NEVER screw up? NEVER hit things?
Man, what a crock!
So you claim that a designer and builder is responsible for what all future owners do with their boats, and has absolute control over that?
You claim that plastic boat owners NEVER screw up? NEVER hit things?
Man, what a crock!
Brent Swain
N/A
Strong enough for what?
Strong enough to survive 16 days pounding on a Baja lee shore, in big surf for 16 days, and be pulled off thru the same surf, with no serious damage ,strong enough to cruise for over 40 years with zero serious structural problems at sea, in several circumnavigations ,and a trip thru the NW passage, strong enough to show no signs of any serious flexing in 34 years of mostly full time cruising, ( plastic boats flex a lot) strong enough to survive pounding across 300 yards of Fjian coral reef in big surf, or being blown ashore in a hurricane in Mozambique, etc etc
is "not strong enough?" But you claim plastic boats which would have, and have, broken up in some of those conditions, are "Strong enough?"
Origami boats get their strength from shape, which avoids hard spots . When you are working with a heavy material, you have to get your strength from geometrical principles, to avoid excess weight of heavy framing. It also reduces building time by up to 90% ,and drastically reduces distortion.
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rotrax
Well-Known Member
Again you say I said or suggested stuff I did not.
Please point out where I have said or suggested GRP boats never hit anything.
You have answered the question about what sort of seaman was in charge of the boat. An inexperienced beginner, with an equally inexperienced helper.
Of course I did not claim or even suggest that a designer and builder is responsible for what happens to a boat once it has passed to the new owner. Another figment of your over fertile imagination.
But, as far as I recall-and you would know this, being a boat designer with much experience-hull speed is the highest speed a displacement hull can achive.
Again, the investigation into the " T- boned a steel barge at hull speed " fails to hold up.
In the act of rounding up, substantial speed will be lost, so the impact was, I suspect, not at hull speed.
I dont know for sure, as I was not there.
Just like you were not there and got it secondhand.
But, it does sound good, does it not. " In one of my boats you can T-bone a steel barge without any damage. "
What a sales pitch.....................................
Brent Swain
N/A
It was in front of Grama's pub in Gibsons.The pub was full of witnesses ,many of whom repeated the story to me, as well as the guy giving directions, who sold his woody to build a steel boat right after. A friend built his steel boat, which I have been aboard many times.You say they are all lying, and you are right?
Changing course 30 degrees doesnt slow a boat down much.
Changing course 30 degrees doesnt slow a boat down much.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
True knowlege is the result of direct experience.
You did not experience this incident directly, but got the story from witnesses from a pub. There is absolutly no chance of exaggeration then!
If you change course 30 degrees from a beam reach to windward, inadvertantly or not, you aint rounding up. Thats luffing. And that is not what you said happened.
Keep digging pal!
Or think a bit more before posting your tall tales.
The well known comedian Billy Conolly met an old schoolfriend who he used to fish with.
His friend, still fishing, told him he had caught a thirty pound fish from a tiny pond in the park.
Billy told him that he went to the same pond, cast his line and caught something really heavy. When he got it to the bank it was a railway lantern two feet square and three feet high. He said that the candle was still burning.
His friend said " Thats rubbish Billy! "
Billy replied " Aye-it may well be. you take ten pounds off the fish and I'll blow the candle out! "
A bit like some of your posts, eh.....................................
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Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
Rotrax and Brent, has it not occurred to yourselves that others on here might get the impression that you are passionate and dedicated willy wavers?
Each of you is determined to have the last word on the subject, and when the other returns, you are then even more determined to waggle.
Please, can we call a truce? You are just going around in circles now, trying to out-waggle each other..
The original poster Tintin was asking about the suitability of a steel boat in warm climates - I cannot remember what the eventual outcome of this was. Tintin, if you are still following this, did you get a steel boat, or perhaps something built of GRP?
For others who might be keen on building their own steel boat, take heart from the enthusiasm shown (and the useful technical hints shown) in the video below - these folk bought a pre-cut kit of blasted & painted plate and section for a Bruce Roberts design, and it appears to be going together very well, with all of the components fitting pretty accurately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDQfVjHqI88&feature=share
The sailing hunks also have a Facebook page as an online Blog detailing the build, trials and tribulations.
https://www.facebook.com/svhunkofjunk/
Each of you is determined to have the last word on the subject, and when the other returns, you are then even more determined to waggle.
Please, can we call a truce? You are just going around in circles now, trying to out-waggle each other..
The original poster Tintin was asking about the suitability of a steel boat in warm climates - I cannot remember what the eventual outcome of this was. Tintin, if you are still following this, did you get a steel boat, or perhaps something built of GRP?
For others who might be keen on building their own steel boat, take heart from the enthusiasm shown (and the useful technical hints shown) in the video below - these folk bought a pre-cut kit of blasted & painted plate and section for a Bruce Roberts design, and it appears to be going together very well, with all of the components fitting pretty accurately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDQfVjHqI88&feature=share
The sailing hunks also have a Facebook page as an online Blog detailing the build, trials and tribulations.
https://www.facebook.com/svhunkofjunk/
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Following turbulence arising from several disagreements in this thread, and a feeling that the underlying subject is exhausted, the thread will be Closed.
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