Start-line Rules (and other racing matters).

[Robert Wilson]

If you're sure of the rules after a couple of hours on here, you're learning faster than me. I've been racing for 10 years and there are still details that I don't fully understand.
But I like to keep a few steps ahead of the cowboys in my club.

Perhaps I should have said "now that I am slightly more aware of the rules" !!
Well said.

 

[Keen_Ed]

Strictly speaking, if S has to alter course to avoid a collision then P hasn't kept clear (definition of keep clear).

 

[Robert Wilson]

May I recommend West Highland yachting Week to you. You would be in Class 8 where protests are frowned upon, almost as much as boorish or aggressive behaviour, with the ultimate sanction of exclusion from the class party at Tobermory and having to deal with the opprobrium of the ladies of the class - I know, I had the temerity to raise the red flag once - never again!

Ouch!! - I don't mind being disqualified, or even T-boned, but NEVER want the opprobrium of the "gentle sex". Scary.

Your yatching week sounds good fun - Please let me have details as and when they become available. Tobermoray only about 70 miles from me, and ok once round Ardnamurchan Point !!

 

[lw395]

I have let a port boat cross in front of me - requiring a slight alteration on my part - there was no protest as it was not in my interest for the boat to tack - hence he was allowed through ... I believe I've had similar done for me ...
As the port tacker was "allowed" through by the RoW vessel surely they should not then be open to protest by a 3rd party ... ?

It's not uncommon to ask port tackers to carry on, and dip them if needed. It is often preferable to having them tack right on your bow, particularly if they can point higher than you, or are a faster class.
Third party protests normally only happen when there is a collision or blatant barging which inconveniences other boats.

 

[lw395]

May I recommend West Highland yachting Week to you. You would be in Class 8 where protests are frowned upon, almost as much as boorish or aggressive behaviour, with the ultimate sanction of exclusion from the class party at Tobermory and having to deal with the opprobrium of the ladies of the class - I know, I had the temerity to raise the red flag once - never again!

In my view, there is nothing more boorish than frowning on a reasonable protest.
That attitude is a slippery slope to anarchy at club level.
When people end up complaining about others' behaviour on the water, the proper framework for that is the protest or arbitration, not long running acrimonious disputes around the club.

/TIRADE

 

[BlueSkyNick]

What a great thread !! Much more interesting than Colregs.

 

[wotayottie]

*Protest rooms don't often appear in "friendly" club racing - it's more a gentleman's agreement on what went wrong over a pint in the bar afterwards! But if some skippers are taking this as meaning they don't have to follow the rules then a strong "protest" call may make them think again - if they don't/won't then I'd consider the merits of racing against cheats!

In my admittedly limited experience of protests, there usually are two mutually exclusive sets of facts, and no third party witnesses.

In my view, there is nothing more boorish than frowning on a reasonable protest.
That attitude is a slippery slope to anarchy at club level.
When people end up complaining about others' behaviour on the water, the proper framework for that is the protest or arbitration, not long running acrimonious disputes around the club.

/TIRADE

Why is it one or the other? We dont have protests ( possibly why my two didnt succeed?) but there is no acrimony afterwards whatever happens. Even when one boat was dismasted in a port / starboard incident. And another time when one was sunk for the same reason.

 

[Resolution]

In my admittedly limited experience of protests, there usually are two mutually exclusive sets of facts, and no third party witnesses.
.

NOT TRUE!!
There are as many sets of "facts" as there are crew on board each yacht!

(I will accept that they are usually mutually exclusive....)

 

[awol]

In my view, there is nothing more boorish than frowning on a reasonable protest.
That attitude is a slippery slope to anarchy at club level.
When people end up complaining about others' behaviour on the water, the proper framework for that is the protest or arbitration, not long running acrimonious disputes around the club.

/TIRADE

But WHYW isn't club level, it's a once a year social and sailing get-together (with a fair emphasis on the social) of old friends from disparate parts with new ones joining as some of the oldies fade - at least it is in Class 8. It would also be disrespectful to keep the committee away from their well earned relaxation unless the crime was particularly heinous.

 

[Iain C]

I'm with BobC's first post on this. I would urge you to speak to your local RYA rules person, or perhaps a knowledgeable racer who knows his/her stuff to run a rules evening at your club.

You don't need to know every single rule, and there are some complex ones, but knowing rights at the start is critical. You sound like you feel "wronged" by the boat above you, charging down the line at you...you did exactly the same to the boat below you. Thinking that the boat below you should have given way, is, frankly, scary.

I know it might all just be a fun, non serious race, however once someone has got hurt or someone's boat put out of action for the summer, the fun soon disappears!

If everyone knows the rules, and plays fair, your racing will be far more enjoyable, and safer.

 

[lw395]

But WHYW isn't club level, it's a once a year social and sailing get-together (with a fair emphasis on the social) of old friends from disparate parts with new ones joining as some of the oldies fade - at least it is in Class 8. It would also be disrespectful to keep the committee away from their well earned relaxation unless the crime was particularly heinous.

Now I've calmed down after my stressful trip to sainsbury's, I will admit there is a difference between a yearly one off friendly event and regular club racing where the 'we don't have protests' attitude gets entrenched.

When you start to take racing seriosuly, not having a proper arena to debate differences of understanding is very corrosive.
I agree with the point about mutually exclusive facts above, sometimes you have to accept that events genuinely do look different when view from the other yacht, and that the other guy acted reasonable from what he could see.
Sometimes you find that each party knows about half the relevant rule and you end up a little wiser and buy each other a beer.
It's better to get it out in the open rather than spending the next year dropping hints that the other party doesn't entirely play by the rules.

 

[wotayottie]

NOT TRUE!!
There are as many sets of "facts" as there are crew on board each yacht!

(I will accept that they are usually mutually exclusive....)

You mean you dont rehearse your crew before the hearing?

It's better to get it out in the open rather than spending the next year dropping hints that the other party doesn't entirely play by the rules.

No need to do that LW. It goes without saying that when we dont win its all because the other boat (s) have bandit's handicaps, which in turn is the result of the handicap officer being dyslexic / blind / biased / senile /bought far too many free pints.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I'm with BobC's first post on this. I would urge you to speak to your local RYA rules person, or perhaps a knowledgeable racer who knows his/her stuff to run a rules evening at your club.

You don't need to know every single rule, and there are some complex ones, but knowing rights at the start is critical. You sound like you feel "wronged" by the boat above you, charging down the line at you...you did exactly the same to the boat below you. Thinking that the boat below you should have given way, is, frankly, scary.

I know it might all just be a fun, non serious race, however once someone has got hurt or someone's boat put out of action for the summer, the fun soon disappears!

If everyone knows the rules, and plays fair, your racing will be far more enjoyable, and safer.

I agree with all of this. Knowing the rules at the start is critical from a collision avoidance perspective and key to tactical manouvres. Sadly, too many people at club level seem to try it on with 'force majeure' when they know better.

 

[onesea]

I agree with all of this. Knowing the rules at the start is critical from a collision avoidance perspective and key to tactical manouvres. Sadly, too many people at club level seem to try it on with 'force majeure' when they know better.

One of the things that puts me off racing my own boat.

I can always remember in a series shortly after leaving the cadet fleet, a mark rounding where a boat (a national champion) barged through on a buoy, with no water. Basicaly I was told I should of kept out of his way he because he always does that .

When it comes to rules in a race if you play the game, sound confident you can get away with all sorts. Not saying its right or its fair but having seen the efforts some will go to win, it is to be expected.

The risk of damage is not worth whilst for me...

 

[wotayottie]

When it comes to rules in a race if you play the game, sound confident you can get away with all sorts.

That applies in much of life - weak to the wall.

 

[Robert Wilson]

You don't need to know every single rule, and there are some complex ones, but knowing rights at the start is critical. You sound like you feel "wronged" by the boat above you, charging down the line at you...you did exactly the same to the boat below you. Thinking that the boat below you should have given way, is, frankly, scary.

I know it might all just be a fun, non serious race, however once someone has got hurt or someone's boat put out of action for the summer, the fun soon disappears!

If everyone knows the rules, and plays fair, your racing will be far more enjoyable, and safer.

Thank you for your comments, but just to clarify a couple of points I do not feel wronged in any way, I was only trying to familiarise myself with the Rules for future reference (and the forumites have done a splendid and interesting job in doing just that).
The other point is that I didn't "do the same to the boat below me", as I let him hold his course and went astern of him. I didn't protest as I was unsure of the Rules. I would NEVER hit another boat (intentionally), whatever I thought of my "rights".
And as I further said, the positions/result don't matter to me; but I do like to conduct myself properly, fairly and in the spirit of sailing.

But thank you, and one-and-all, for your spirited advice.
Hope this stormy weather abates before the end of the season!

 

[DanTribe]

I can always remember in a series shortly after leaving the cadet fleet, a mark rounding where a boat (a national champion) barged through on a buoy, with no water. Basicaly I was told I should of kept out of his way he because he always does that .

When it comes to rules in a race if you play the game, sound confident you can get away with all sorts. Not saying its right or its fair but having seen the efforts some will go to win, it is to be expected.
.

I was watching a group of new Optimist sailors being given some race coaching. The instructor complained that they weren't shouting enough.
The implication was that he who shouts loudest must be in the right, notwithstanding any rules.
When my kids were being coached at a fairly high level by the RYA, I sometimes took them aside after hearing the coaches advice, and told them not to do that, sail clean and don't cheat.

 

[Thistle]

When my kids were being coached at a fairly high level by the RYA, I sometimes took them aside after hearing the coaches advice, and told them not to do that, sail clean and don't cheat.

I wonder if you also took the coach aside and made the same point to them?

 

[DanTribe]

I wonder if you also took the coach aside and made the same point to them?

I get the strong impression that the RYA's attitude is "win at any cost"
What I regard as cheating they call "pushing the boundaries"

 

[savageseadog]

I get the strong impression that the RYA's attitude is "win at any cost"
What I regard as cheating they call "pushing the boundaries"

I think Ben Ainslie took the idea on board.