Refueler
Well-Known Member
I agree that manufacture has paired specs back to near minimum on many products in todays world .. but the specs on such wire etc is tight and should not cause concern.
Standing rigging 20 years old
- Thread starter Tamar
- Start date
I agree that manufacture has paired specs back to near minimum on many products in todays world .. but the specs on such wire etc is tight and should not cause concern.
colind3782
Well-Known Member
Aye, that he is!
colind3782
Well-Known Member
No arguments here but the insurers, GJW, state that compliance with the surveyor's recommendation is a condition of cover. I'm pretty sure that surveyors' reports are based on a template with some of the details changed for the particular boat and a lot of the "recommendations" come as standard.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
I have Surveyors and Superintendents in many different countries doing many different jobs. One of the biggest headaches I have : Because of Computers - I see modified old reports being used again and again ...
I have strict instructions to them to not do this .... but of course it does.
As regards this rigging item ... as I said before - its an item that due to its being mentioned so often as a 'cover arse' comment - it has become a standard item in many Yacht Surveyors reports.
greeny
Well-Known Member
OK so it seems replacement for you is a simple task. Buy the boat and change it if it makes you feel better. I don't see the issue.
I wouldn't be changing it if it was me unless there was some other evidence it had been damaged or was in poor condition which would be flagged up on inspection or survey or you could see yourself. If you can make and change your own rigging then surely you are capable of self inspection.
My rigging is13yrs old. I do a visual inspection of wires and all terminals each year. Spoke with my insurance company when it was 10 yrs old. They weren't bothered. Didn't need a survey to continue normal full cover. 10 years limit is a maritime myth in my opinion and personal experience. Some insurance companies may have reportedly used it to wriggle out of claims in the past but if you have the conversation with them when taking cover, there's no wriggle room.
Tiderace quote :- If the standing rigging is wire, I doubt you will find anybody who will insure your rig. I cant recall the relevant standard; but it is most defiantly 10 years replacement or survey (which can be similar cost to replacement). Rod is a different matter. Insurance companies will ask on this and will want a copy of the survey report.
There is definitely no limit as you state or I and many thousand others would not have insurance cover.
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Poignard
Well-Known Member
My acceptance letter from GJW in 2002 stated
"We warrant that the recommendations are carried out as stipulated by the surveyor."
The recommendations included renewal of standing rigging, a new gas installation, new fire extinguishers, et al.
Tamar
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the advice.
But my op was about negotiate I price taking into account the old rigging
greeny
Well-Known Member
Most Yacht surveyors are not riggers. I've not met one yet that would even think about going aloft to have a look. I've seen them using binoculars though. 
I would have them put a statement in the report that the rigging was not inspected and would be subject to a seperate rigging survey. That way you avoid the stupid cover your arse statement they cut and paste into the reports. Then get a survey done by a good rigger and explain that you are not in the business of changing for changing sake, you need a thorough inspection and report that lists any deficiencies and the action required to remedy. Then complete the work he stipulates is necessary. A conversation and good relationship with the rigger helps you understand the why's and wherefore's of his findings.
I would have them put a statement in the report that the rigging was not inspected and would be subject to a seperate rigging survey. That way you avoid the stupid cover your arse statement they cut and paste into the reports. Then get a survey done by a good rigger and explain that you are not in the business of changing for changing sake, you need a thorough inspection and report that lists any deficiencies and the action required to remedy. Then complete the work he stipulates is necessary. A conversation and good relationship with the rigger helps you understand the why's and wherefore's of his findings.
greeny
Well-Known Member
Yes I saw that the original post was about you using the replacement rigging cost to reduce the price but the thread has moved on since then and has gone into survey requirements for insurance purposes and the quality of the average surveyor report for insurance purpose. So I was partly commenting on that as well as your original question.
I guess the difference between you and me is that I've had my rigging from new and know where it's been and what its done. Your's is an unknown to you. As I said, if it makes you feel better then change it.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Which has been answered many times .. make offer and wait.
The thread has moved on based on your opinion about old rigging and others views on it.
Tamar
Well-Known Member
I think the sale has fallen through anyway. Not because of the rigging issue.
TSB240
Well-Known Member
Remind us all exactly where you are happily sailing with no insurance cover so we can avoid bumping into you?.
Bit risky with no third party or wreck recovery??
Is your home worth anything to you?
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Wonder how long before a turdy statement ...
Tamar
Well-Known Member
A turdy statement ?
I had a guy in a speedboat crash into the back of one of my commercial boats last year, he put a nice hole in the transom.
Guess who had to pay because this idiot had no insurance.?
peter gibbs
Well-Known Member
Don't we all love this debate - it goes to the heart of how much confidence we have in our vessels not to crap out on passage, and that spreads the topic to engines, controls electronics et al. As for personal ability to cope with conditions, we'll leave that for another day.
The chances of each critical item failing on passage are core. The engine is perhaps the most likely to stop, and the rigging the least likely to fail. I replaced my SS rig at 15 years, boat owned from new, as a precaution, taking the view that in my ownership of perhaps 25 years before sale I would have spent just £1200 on the materials, plus yard costs lowering and raising the mast = £1500 = amortised at £60 each year over 25 years. I consider that reasonable for peace of mind, and the record will show the prospective next owner I took care of the boat. My insurer takes the view that a special rig survey is not required, even over 20 years of boat age and that seems to confirm their experience that rig failure has a low probability.
When it comes to buying a used vessel, if no proof is offered that the rig has been renewed for, say, 15 years, and you intend to keep it for a few seasons, this is probably a good investment; how it is negotiated into the vessel purchase price is secondary, but it is a good line of argument for a discount if the asking price is a full one. If this is the only core concern, proceeding with the purchase seems reasonable. As we all know surveyors will guarantee nothing as to the status of the rig, or anything else, won't ascend the mast to check out tangs etc, so there's no recourse there.
That's it.
Good luck
PWG
The chances of each critical item failing on passage are core. The engine is perhaps the most likely to stop, and the rigging the least likely to fail. I replaced my SS rig at 15 years, boat owned from new, as a precaution, taking the view that in my ownership of perhaps 25 years before sale I would have spent just £1200 on the materials, plus yard costs lowering and raising the mast = £1500 = amortised at £60 each year over 25 years. I consider that reasonable for peace of mind, and the record will show the prospective next owner I took care of the boat. My insurer takes the view that a special rig survey is not required, even over 20 years of boat age and that seems to confirm their experience that rig failure has a low probability.
When it comes to buying a used vessel, if no proof is offered that the rig has been renewed for, say, 15 years, and you intend to keep it for a few seasons, this is probably a good investment; how it is negotiated into the vessel purchase price is secondary, but it is a good line of argument for a discount if the asking price is a full one. If this is the only core concern, proceeding with the purchase seems reasonable. As we all know surveyors will guarantee nothing as to the status of the rig, or anything else, won't ascend the mast to check out tangs etc, so there's no recourse there.
That's it.
Good luck
PWG
dulls
N/A
Thanks for the detailed reply. I had an issue with a surveyor appointed by anchorage marine(Australia) My boat was damaged in the Queensland flood. We lost our dinghy and the hull was damaged both sides The boat had just been repainted the year before so was in good condition. They sent the surveyor to try and and find some sort of loop hole to avoid paying the insurance. What was funny was the boat yard i had my mooring with was approached by this surveyor to ask if i was trust worthy etc. He approached the secretary at the yard and started asking about the paint work and saying it was not a good paint job, trying to work an angle to reduce the fee for the new paint job. He then asked her if i was trustworthy and the sort of person who might make a false claim. I had lost my chain and rocna anchor. Another yacht had dragged on to my boat and had used bolt cutters to free his boat by cutting my chain. Nothing i could do about that! My dinghy was lost (Walker Bay) as it was on a friends boat that sunk in the floods. His kids were using it as it had the sailing kit. So he then approached the manager to say the original paint job was not very good so maybe i was trying to get a new paint job.(By the way the paint job was superb) He had made an assumption that because i was English the boat had been painted elsewhere. By that time the boat was on the slip so the manager took him out to the boat and said that the paint job was good. The boat was scratched down both sides along the entire length. The manager then went and got all the paperwork for the paint job as that yard had done it. So he climbed back into his shell. But the best was to come. My wife was the secretary whom he had approached in the first place. We got a full paint job and about 50 % cover on the dinghy plus new chain and rocna. About 3 months after the pay out my dinghy was recovered and returned to me. It was barnacle encrusted and cleaned up with jet spray. I rang the insurance people and told them and they asked for the money for the dinghy returned. I said no and never heard from them again. I changed insurance companies.
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dulls
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Further to my post my recovered walker bay. The surveyor did not believe i had a walker bay but fortunately there was plenty of paperwork from purchase to even a photo of it on my friends boat as well as us using it.
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Refueler
Well-Known Member
When I bought my Sunrider 25 ... guy selling gave me his copy of the Survey carried a year or so earlier ............... I laughed and he asked why .....
I answered that now I knew why he had advertised it as Colvic .... which had caught my attention ... as I always liked the Colvic 26.
The daft surveyor had written it up as a Colvic 26 ... this was no typing error or use of old report as it was still Amstrad days !! A 286 PC was a dream machine !!
The boat had no connection to Colvic at all, not even the belief that it was the basis of the Colvic design .. It was from Searider Yachts of Poole. They produced Seariders and Sunriders on the same work boat hull moulded by Tylers in Essex. Possibly the mix-up came because Colvic CRaft were also in Essex.
Look at that Genny ... UGH !! if the wind gets up - he'll wish it was half the size !
dulls
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We had a list of good and bad surveyors. If you got one for insurance purposes to re insure your boat you got a lazy one. Just had a quick look charged you too much and then wrote a suitable report for the surveyor.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Been there - got the T shirt. I really disliked some of the guys who put themselves up as yacht surveyors .. charlatans ... and the Association was not much better .. had a few run ins with them ... in fact I advised one client to sue them.
Very glad to be out of that market now ...
