Standing rigging 20 years old

[dulls]

Been there - got the T shirt. I really disliked some of the guys who put themselves up as yacht surveyors .. charlatans ... and the Association was not much better .. had a few run ins with them ... in fact I advised one client to sue them.

Very glad to be out of that market now ...

Some very good surveyors out there. Best boat surveyor i ever came across was a guy called Graeme Chimes in Australia. I agree too many charlatans.

 

[Tiderace]

OK so it seems replacement for you is a simple task. Buy the boat and change it if it makes you feel better. I don't see the issue.
I wouldn't be changing it if it was me unless there was some other evidence it had been damaged or was in poor condition which would be flagged up on inspection or survey or you could see yourself. If you can make and change your own rigging then surely you are capable of self inspection.
My rigging is13yrs old. I do a visual inspection of wires and all terminals each year. Spoke with my insurance company when it was 10 yrs old. They weren't bothered. Didn't need a survey to continue normal full cover. 10 years limit is a maritime myth in my opinion and personal experience. Some insurance companies may have reportedly used it to wriggle out of claims in the past but if you have the conversation with them when taking cover, there's no wriggle room.


Tiderace quote :- If the standing rigging is wire, I doubt you will find anybody who will insure your rig. I cant recall the relevant standard; but it is most defiantly 10 years replacement or survey (which can be similar cost to replacement). Rod is a different matter. Insurance companies will ask on this and will want a copy of the survey report.

There is definitely no limit as you state or I and many thousand others would not have insurance cover.

When I get some time I'll dig out the strandard that was quoted to me by the insurance company.

This year, for the first time in some years I had a phone around for insurance, all the companies I contact asked "Is the standing rigging older than ten years."

Whether "you" are insured is another matter; and I would suspect based on a number of factors; one being what age of boat do you have and when was it last surveyed at the request of the insurance company? As I'm sure you know insurance companies require older boats to be surveyed every 5 years, so it will come up; and as said above, rightly or wrongly, as it can be arse covering. But; if its in the survey report and you don't address it, good luck with a claim!

The other point that people are missing is, regardless of when you surveyed it/ what your insurance company says; if you make a claim they will say "was it well maintained?" Industry norm (rightly or wrongly) is replacement or full NDT at 10 years. If you cant prove this, the insurance company has a door the size of a barn to wiggle through and not pay out. Whether you think this is right or wrong is irrelevant, your only ability to challenge it will be in court. So balance of risk for you. Do you a) spend a few K to replace your standing rigging every ten years/get an appropriate inspection, or b) take the risk that the insurance company wont pay out IF you make a claim (and believe me it will cost far more than the standing rigging just to get into court, let alone win, then will you be awarded full costs; which is not guaranteed either!)

For my rig, as its loss would end my sailing, costing near 6 figures to replace, I was very careful with the insurance company as I could not prove the age of the standing rigging when asked. We agreed an annual visual inspection with a progressive replacement plan (Rod rigging; so somewhat expensive. I could have gone the full NDT route instead, but the cost wasn't that different, so we just went with replacement.) If it was wire, I wouldn't have blinked and just replaced it all in one go; cheap as chips in comparison to rod.

But to the OPs point, it WILL come up in a survey and the insurance company WILL want to see the survey report and or have you confirm you have addressed all points raised. So if they want insurance, it is highly likely that they will have to have new standing rigging. (right or wrong is irrelevant, thats the way it is.)

 

[greeny]

Just to throw a log on the fire.
What about skin fittings. At what age does the jury believe they should be changed out, even though they show no outward sign of problems. I've been on board 2 boats (not mine) that had skin fitting failure but never lost a mast, yet.

 

[Refueler]

Just to throw a log on the fire.
What about skin fittings. At what age does the jury believe they should be changed out, even though they show no outward sign of problems. I've been on board 2 boats (not mine) that had skin fitting failure but never lost a mast, yet.

I'm contemplating replacing my Bog outlet seacock ... but that will be a job once lifted out. Problem will then be trying to remove it after about 45yrs use !!

 

[Tamar]

Just to throw a log on the fire.
What about skin fittings. At what age does the jury believe they should be changed out, even though they show no outward sign of problems. I've been on board 2 boats (not mine) that had skin fitting failure but never lost a mast, yet.

I run commercial boats, the surveyor recommend every 5 years. It can be a legal minefield to go against advice.
If one fails and you loose the boat what will your defence be?

 

[Refueler]

I run commercial boats, the surveyor recommend every 5 years. It can be a legal minefield to go against advice.
If one fails and you loose the boat what will your defence be?

I must be in wrong business then .. must speak to accounts - think about Skin Fitting business in UK ...

 

[Tamar]

When I get some time I'll dig out the strandard that was quoted to me by the insurance company.

This year, for the first time in some years I had a phone around for insurance, all the companies I contact asked "Is the standing rigging older than ten years."

Whether "you" are insured is another matter; and I would suspect based on a number of factors; one being what age of boat do you have and when was it last surveyed at the request of the insurance company? As I'm sure you know insurance companies require older boats to be surveyed every 5 years, so it will come up; and as said above, rightly or wrongly, as it can be arse covering. But; if its in the survey report and you don't address it, good luck with a claim!

The other point that people are missing is, regardless of when you surveyed it/ what your insurance company says; if you make a claim they will say "was it well maintained?" Industry norm (rightly or wrongly) is replacement or full NDT at 10 years. If you cant prove this, the insurance company has a door the size of a barn to wiggle through and not pay out. Whether you think this is right or wrong is irrelevant, your only ability to challenge it will be in court. So balance of risk for you. Do you a) spend a few K to replace your standing rigging every ten years/get an appropriate inspection, or b) take the risk that the insurance company wont pay out IF you make a claim (and believe me it will cost far more than the standing rigging just to get into court, let alone win, then will you be awarded full costs; which is not guaranteed either!)

For my rig, as its loss would end my sailing, costing near 6 figures to replace, I was very careful with the insurance company as I could not prove the age of the standing rigging when asked. We agreed an annual visual inspection with a progressive replacement plan (Rod rigging; so somewhat expensive. I could have gone the full NDT route instead, but the cost wasn't that different, so we just went with replacement.) If it was wire, I wouldn't have blinked and just replaced it all in one go; cheap as chips in comparison to rod.

But to the OPs point, it WILL come up in a survey and the insurance company WILL want to see the survey report and or have you confirm you have addressed all points raised. So if they want insurance, it is highly likely that they will have to have new standing rigging. (right or wrong is irrelevant, thats the way it is.)

Good post.
Just change everything that is recommended. My view is that if you don't and it fails the insurance company will wiggle out of paying. Also if you loose a mast with 25 year old rigging, and it takes someone overboard, how will you explain to the court you weren't negligent?

 

[Tamar]

I must be in wrong business then .. must speak to accounts - think about Skin Fitting business in UK ...

Hahaha so must I. But you have already said that you are going to have a job removing yours. They only cost a few quid, and can be changed in minutes...piece of mind sir

 

[Tamar]

Update on my op.
The vendor very kindly let me have a second look today. I have decided to withdraw from any further negotiations and continue my search.

 

[Refueler]

Hahaha so must I. But you have already said that you are going to have a job removing yours. They only cost a few quid, and can be changed in minutes...piece of mind sir

If you reckon you can change my bog outlet in a few minutes ............. you are kidding yersel !!

Its a traditional bronze cone seacock of ~50yrs vintage ... well set into the hull now .. it will be a struggle not to damage the gel coat removing it ....

The only plastic through hull I have is the speed log ... all others are bronze vintage jobs.

 

[Tamar]

If you reckon you can change my bog outlet in a few minutes ............. you are kidding yersel !!

Its a traditional bronze cone seacock of ~50yrs vintage ... well set into the hull now .. it will be a struggle not to damage the gel coat removing it ....

The only plastic through hull I have is the speed log ... all others are bronze vintage jobs.

What I meant is if you change them on a regular basis they come out easy.

 

[greeny]

I run commercial boats, the surveyor recommend every 5 years. It can be a legal minefield to go against advice.
If one fails and you loose the boat what will your defence be?

I agree it's difficult to go against "expert" advice. In a past life I was in a similar situation as yourself with surveyors but ours were from Lloyds and DNV. Even their surveyors were open to discussion and debate about their reports. We often agreed changes to reports as we also often agreed to disagree.

In these cases regarding rigging and skin fittings and the like its just arse covering in my book. It must be great to be a yacht surveyor. Money for old rope. Just say change everything in your report and then you have no liability. Surveyors should be challenged on these type of reports and made to justify their "strong" recommendations based on engineering evidence then they would not be so quick to write these glib statements
Standards written by insurance companies? I thought technical standards were written by engineers who have knowledge of the subject.
" A standard is a repeatable, harmonised, agreed and documented way of doing something. Standards contain technical specifications or other precise criteria designed to be used consistently as a rule, guideline, or definition. "
Apologies to the good surveyors out there as I am sure there are many but there also too many of the other type.

 

[Refueler]

I agree it's difficult to go against "expert" advice. In a past life I was in a similar situation as yourself with surveyors but ours were from Lloyds and DNV. Even their surveyors were open to discussion and debate about their reports. We often agreed changes to reports as we also often agreed to disagree.

In these cases regarding rigging and skin fittings and the like its just arse covering in my book. It must be great to be a yacht surveyor. Money for old rope. Just say change everything in your report and then you have no liability. Surveyors should be challenged on these type of reports and made to justify their "strong" recommendations based on engineering evidence then they would not be so quick to write these glib statements
Standards written by insurance companies? I thought technical standards were written by engineers who have knowledge of the subject.
" A standard is a repeatable, harmonised, agreed and documented way of doing something. Standards contain technical specifications or other precise criteria designed to be used consistently as a rule, guideline, or definition. "
Apologies to the good surveyors out there as I am sure there are many but there also too many of the other type.

The day insurance companys use a set of standards other than how to screw more money will be way way past our lifetimes ..

Remember that all policies / issuance / claims are Underwriters ... the Company's / Brokers are not the real people at the back with the money decisions.

 

[Refueler]

Aye, that he is!

No surprise.

 

[[163233]]

A turdy statement ?
I had a guy in a speedboat crash into the back of one of my commercial boats last year, he put a nice hole in the transom.
Guess who had to pay because this idiot had no insurance.?

Surely it's still his liability though did he really have nothing?

 

[Tamar]

Surely it's still his liability though did he really have nothing?

It's complicated. I can't say anything about this because we are in the process of starting court proceedings against the owner of the boat.

 

[andsarkit]

As I'm sure you know insurance companies require older boats to be surveyed every 5 years

Not all insurance companies. My 50 year old boat has been with the same insurance company for decades and they have not asked for a survey for at least 20 years. Perhaps the fact that I have not made a claim in that time gives them confidence that they are onto a winner as I have paid in at least than the value of the boat over the decades. I replace the rigging every 20 years. Small boat with masthead rig and 9 bits of wire holding the mast up and I use dyform wire to give an extra margin of safety. I have more concerns over the chainplates (U bolts) which I will change this year as I have seen these fail with unseen crevice corrosion.
Boats are a complex mixture of mechanical parts and need to be looked at as a whole and not just replacing one item and thinking all will be well.

 

[Refueler]

What I meant is if you change them on a regular basis they come out easy.

Why would I want to change a serviceable item ?

Think on this : Ships not only have large valves and seacocks .. but also many small ones ... they do not change every 5 years - in fact vast majority of them go the life of the vessel in far harsher conditions than your boats ...

 

[Refueler]

A turdy statement ?
I had a guy in a speedboat crash into the back of one of my commercial boats last year, he put a nice hole in the transom.
Guess who had to pay because this idiot had no insurance.?

If in EU or UK ... legal claim for damages is not hard to do. In fact most countries of the world will have such recourse. Insurance only replaces and expands on that in reality.

If you paid - then I'm sorry ... I'm damn sure I would have had the guy by his S&C ....

 

[Refueler]

When I get some time I'll dig out the strandard that was quoted to me by the insurance company.

This year, for the first time in some years I had a phone around for insurance, all the companies I contact asked "Is the standing rigging older than ten years."

Whether "you" are insured is another matter; and I would suspect based on a number of factors; one being what age of boat do you have and when was it last surveyed at the request of the insurance company? As I'm sure you know insurance companies require older boats to be surveyed every 5 years, so it will come up; and as said above, rightly or wrongly, as it can be arse covering. But; if its in the survey report and you don't address it, good luck with a claim!

The other point that people are missing is, regardless of when you surveyed it/ what your insurance company says; if you make a claim they will say "was it well maintained?" Industry norm (rightly or wrongly) is replacement or full NDT at 10 years. If you cant prove this, the insurance company has a door the size of a barn to wiggle through and not pay out. Whether you think this is right or wrong is irrelevant, your only ability to challenge it will be in court. So balance of risk for you. Do you a) spend a few K to replace your standing rigging every ten years/get an appropriate inspection, or b) take the risk that the insurance company wont pay out IF you make a claim (and believe me it will cost far more than the standing rigging just to get into court, let alone win, then will you be awarded full costs; which is not guaranteed either!)

For my rig, as its loss would end my sailing, costing near 6 figures to replace, I was very careful with the insurance company as I could not prove the age of the standing rigging when asked. We agreed an annual visual inspection with a progressive replacement plan (Rod rigging; so somewhat expensive. I could have gone the full NDT route instead, but the cost wasn't that different, so we just went with replacement.) If it was wire, I wouldn't have blinked and just replaced it all in one go; cheap as chips in comparison to rod.

But to the OPs point, it WILL come up in a survey and the insurance company WILL want to see the survey report and or have you confirm you have addressed all points raised. So if they want insurance, it is highly likely that they will have to have new standing rigging. (right or wrong is irrelevant, thats the way it is.)

Sorry but I disagree with quite a few statements you make ....

Go back and read about NC and my boat having two claims one after each other ............. read others posts that no mention of rig age ...
Insurance companys will use any factor they can IF the item in question has contributing or cause .... we all know that ...