Standing rigging 20 years old

[Skylark]

Get a rigger to do a formal rig report, your surveyor will be able to suggest an appropriately qualified rigger.
Last one I had was about 100 quid.

My last boat was over 10 years old when I sold it so I pondered this issue prior to putting it on the market. The local rigger, trained during military service, refused to do a survey and told me that any done wouldn’t be worth the paper they’re written on. He said that it is near impossible to do a meaningful NDT of standing rigging. Plus, if he issued a report to say that it was fine and it failed the next day, he’d potentially be open to liability.

He added that there appeared to be a lot of voodoo in the 10 year rule but, in the absence of a meaningful and consistent test, it’s impossible to fight the system.

Perhaps just an alternative view?

 

[ditchcrawler]

On my 31ft boat I had the rigging professionally inspected at 11 years old and the report said all was well.

I changed it all including rigging screws after another 3 years for peace of mind.

As has been said it also depends on the use and miles that have been done as well as the important factor as to the reasonableness of the price
been asked. Some people will pick up every item in a survey in an attempt to negotiate the price down. At the end of the day a used boat is a used boat.
One cannot expect everything to be new.

 

[[163233]]

My last boat was over 10 years old when I sold it so I pondered this issue prior to putting it on the market. The local rigger, trained during military service, refused to do a survey and told me that any done wouldn’t be worth the paper they’re written on. He said that it is near impossible to do a meaningful NDT of standing rigging. Plus, if he issued a report to say that it was fine and it failed the next day, he’d potentially be open to liability.

He added that there appeared to be a lot of voodoo in the 10 year rule but, in the absence of a meaningful and consistent test, it’s impossible to fight the system.

Perhaps just an alternative view?

That in itself could be useful to the OP. A rig report just saying that it needs a new rig might help shift the price.

My rigger was fine looking at my rigging, and while I've got a receipt for it being less than 10yrs old, he didn't even ask if I knew how old it was. He did however know how old it was by looking at it, which was quite impressive.

It depends if you're after some kind of assurance that the steel won't give way - (which if you can't know after ten years, how do you know before ten years?) - or if you want it checked that nothing is actually fraying, or knackered, or put on wrong, or missing. Which might be more common reasons for failure.

 

[Tamar]

One cannot expect everything to be new.

I quite agree, but can i expect things to be serviceable and not going to break as soon as I get the boat?

 

[alahol2]

Has anybody EVER been told by their insurance company that stainless rigging must be replaced every 10 years?

 

[[163233]]

I quite agree, but can i expect things to be serviceable and not going to break as soon as I get the boat?

No, you can't really. If you're buying from a private individual it's sold as seen.
If they've actively lied that might be different, but otherwise you have to be sure yourself.

 

[colind3782]

Has anybody EVER been told by their insurance company that stainless rigging must be replaced every 10 years?

I haven't but they do say follow the surveyor's recommendations

 

[alahol2]

I haven't but they do say follow the surveyor's recommendations

The only comments in a survey I've ever had about rigging, if mentioned at all, was that it 'is fit for purpose'. Mostly it's not mentioned and age is never mentioned.

 

[colind3782]

The only comments in a survey I've ever had about rigging, if mentioned at all, was that it 'is fit for purpose'. Mostly it's not mentioned and age is never mentioned.

When I bought my boat, the surveyor specified that if the rigging was more than ten years old it should be replaced.

"If the standing rigging is more than 10 years old, complete replacement of all the components including rigging wires, rigging screws, end fittings and pins is strongly recommended"

 

[dulls]

Like many others do I assume. I have owned 3 boats in UK and each fully insured .. each with more than 10 yr old rigging / sails ... NEVER had any trouble at all with Insurance .. never been asked age of sails or rigging.

In fact go to my previous post - I've even claimed sails and rigging repairs .... ALL PAID.

Which company please kind sir?

 

[Refueler]

Which company please kind sir?

Newton Crum .... then a German outfit that halved my premiums and gave better cover !! Manheim AG

Luckily the old NC is no more ............

 

[Refueler]

When I bought my boat, the surveyor specified that if the rigging was more than ten years old it should be replaced.

"If the standing rigging is more than 10 years old, complete replacement of all the components including rigging wires, rigging screws, end fittings and pins is strongly recommended"

Bet he was YBDSA !!

 

[lynallbel]

That's probably because they are encased in 'tar' & protected from the elements.
Those underneath roadways & subjected to roadsalt, do corrode & get replaced.

Have you any examples of bridges with load bearing stainless rope?

 

[RJJ]

No, you can't really. If you're buying from a private individual it's sold as seen.
If they've actively lied that might be different, but otherwise you have to be sure yourself.

Things breaking, and also needing routine replacing, is a fact of life for boats more than a few years old. The seller may have told you component A was new or serviced last year; even better if he has paperwork to show for it; then you may have a reasonable expectation of longevity on that component alone.

But otherwise it's a continuous feast. The expenditure and the pleasure go hand in hand with ownership.

What you want to avoid as a buyer is a boat that has been either neglected unused or neglected and sailed very hard for more than a year, except to the extent that's reflected in the price. It's reasonable to interview the owner, in a friendly way, over a beer, and to ask for evidence of maintenance and servicing.

But once the deal is done, it's done. If you want him to warranty the boat, I am sure you can ask, and I am sure he will raise the price.

 

[LadyInBed]

When I bought my boat, the surveyor specified that if the rigging was more than ten years old it should be replaced.

"If the standing rigging is more than 10 years old, complete replacement of all the components including rigging wires, rigging screws, end fittings and pins is strongly recommended"

Interesting that the rigger says "strongly recommend" and you interpret that as "should be replaced".
This seems to be the general trend, recommendations that may be a cover your arse statement by the surveyor are taken as a must do by the survey commissioner / insurance company.
Surely, if the surveyor finds something wrong or worn to a point that it is likely to fail, he should say so and say "should be replaced" and give reasons why.

 

[dulls]

Newton Crum .... then a German outfit that halved my premiums and gave better cover !! Manheim AG

Luckily the old NC is no more ............

Thanks for that. Will go into my book of useful contacts.

 

[Sharky34]

Have you any examples of bridges with load bearing stainless rope?

Check the Oxford ring road bridges.

 

[smert]

The surveyor on our boat purchase last year said that the if the rigging is 10-20 years old it is likely to last until the same point as if it was replaced with some new rigging today, as the stainless steel of the new stuff is not as good quality as the older stuff.

 

[Sharky34]

The surveyor on our boat purchase last year said that the if the rigging is 10-20 years old it is likely to last until the same point as if it was replaced with some new rigging today, as the stainless steel of the new stuff is not as good quality as the older stuff.

Chinese is it?

 

[Refueler]

Thanks for that. Will go into my book of useful contacts.

Fearing a backlash ...

For years I was a Newton Crum client ... sensible (for UK !! - UK is more expensive than most countries I have checked) premium. They were famous for paying out after the UK Hurricane - while other well known Ins were arguing.
My Snapdragon while moored at Farlington, was broken into and literally stripped inside ... sails ... fishing gear ... even to smashing the internal door ... NC were good .. we agreed a solution to replace all sails and any gear that was not covered - House Contents (L&G) covered.

Couple of months later - the forestay ripped out of the stem and boat was damaged getting back into Bembridge. This is where things took a turn ...
Unknown to me till I received a refusal of my claim - NC sent a Surveyor to IoW to check over the boat because it was soon after the first claim. The report written by that Surveyor was the biggest load of rubbish I have ever read. I'm a surveyor and I would be ashamed of such a document.
Basically his instructions as I found out - were to investigate the PREVIOUS claim and see where I may have falsified. His report made claim that my boat could not have had so many different sails as previous claim stated ... that the internal door and forward hatch had no signs of forced entry ... they are just examples. The fact the boat when broken into had Hanked on foresails and not the Profurl NC and I had agreed was a cheaper alternative to all the sails I had stolen - he missed completely. The internal door and hatch had been cleanly repaired and faired back in.
I actually spoke with the Surveyor ... Boatyard gave me his contact details. He was shocked as he was not expecting me to know who he was !! NC then received legal notice regarding their actions. The surveyor was informed that it was under consideration to add him to the 'notice'. No permission had been given for his access and entry into the boat. Boatyard was after this given explicit instructions that no-one other than myself or yard person had any access to the boat.
NC then washed their hands of it all and referred me to the Underwriters direct.

Underwriters and I came to compromise solution in that they 'wrote off' the boat, paid me market value and I retained ownership ... originally they stated they would pay and keep the boat themselves. I reminded them that Yard fees were mounting, boat was damaged and they would then have obligation to solve. They quickly offered me to retain the boat ...

The boat was repaired, in fact she was better after as the standard Snapdragon forestay attachment was the reason for the event ... being a simple nut and washer under deck set into the GRP of the stem. We replaced that with a better blade fitting and also bar extending down the stem .. but returned her to hanked on sails ... I sold the Profurl to Westerly Tiger owner.

Later I heard that NC had closed down and it was some time later I heard they had started up again possibly under new management.

OK - its a bloody horror story - BUT the fact is NC did honour claim and no mention or quibbles about age of sails etc. The second claim was paid out on Underwriters direction - again no mention or quibble about age of rigging.

Lets move on ... my next boat was 3rd Party only via Basic Boat ... purely to satisfy Marina requirement for Salvage / Recovery coverage in event of sinking alongside.
When the boat moved to Latvia - and to my own private moorings - I wanted Insurance for the Baltic Cruises - and Mannheimer AG was advised by a friend in Riga who deals as a broker. Mannheimer were excellent with significantly better and cheaper Insurance than any quote I ever had in UK. No surveys - just a letter from me stating general condition, intended use etc.
They had literally no limit on geographic location of the boat or its flag.

I d admit that after a number of seasons - I let insurance lapse and since have not bothered. There is no requirement over here to have any even if I moor at the local club.

Sorry to veer of on a tangent .... but maybe it helps someone. If anyone has trouble with a claim and Broker doesn't 'live up' to expectation ... DEMAND access to the REAL insurer - the Underwriter. They will not talk with you - they insist on Letter ... Fax or Email only. But that is the ultimate decider - NOT the Broker.