SSR - White Lies - asking for a friend

[ashtead]

So is the issue the absence of a Uk bank account for the non EU family residents who might be using the boat alone ? Once the registration is completed then what further contact does the MCA have with the registered parties apart from emails as ask about aerials at top of mast??

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Thanks. I know what the right answer is and the raison d'etre of the SSR. My friends are looking for guidance with the "wrong" answer or a fudge, if you prefer.

This is a sailing forum not a breaking the law forum.

 

[Irish Rover]

This is a sailing forum not a breaking the law forum.

 

[Tranona]

Eligibility for the SSR is based on being established in the UK - nothing to do with citizenship, or with being on the electoral roll, nor having a bank account nor paying tax. However many of those things may well be indicators that you are eligible.

There seems to be no problem for the owner who loves in the UK, but adding the other owners all at the same address is almost certain to raise questions. Not unusual to have husband/wife or partners even if they have different names, but 3 people whose only link is having the same surname is stretching it.

The answer to the question is clear - what is proposed is not in the rules, and just asking the same question several times does not change that. The only sensible advice is that if the 3 people want to try - let them. Probability is that they will be questioned and rejected, in which case back to Plan B - use Part 1 (which should actually be Plan A, given that for the cost of a few hundred £s will be 100% successful)

 

[ashtead]

Indeed Tranona, it would seem that what not clear is the degree of investigation undertaken to effect the registration for SSR in the absence of a Uk electoral registration by non EU passport holders but if merely having an interest in a uk property is the test it would seem there is a simple solution in a family situation.

 

[Bilgediver]

They want to have all names on the register. Here in Turkey, for instance, the Coast Guard make a big issue if a registered owner is not onboard if you're stopped while underway.

There must be an endless queue of commercial/charter vessels waiting for owners in various parts of the world to sort things out and crew on board getting exasperated .

 

[Irish Rover]

There must be an endless queue of commercial/charter vessels waiting for owners in various parts of the world to sort things out and crew on board getting exasperated .

????

 

[Bru]

Thanks for the replies so far. So, it seems, the major stumbling block would be if they cross checked with the electoral register. Are we sure they do that - my understanding is UK citizens don't even need to be resident in the UK to get on the register. I emphasise again that one of the three is a tax paying property owner genuinely resident in the UK and shares a surname with the other two.

Yes, as I already posted they definitely do check the electoral register and if an applicant is not on the register at the claimed address they will reject the application and require alternative proof of residence (not citizenship, you have to be resident in the UK and either a British citizen or a citizen of the EU, EEA, British territories etc and resident and economically established in the UK)

This is from first hand experience, I've still got the rejection letter somewhere (I think it's in a folder on the boat)

For clarity, here is the eligibility criteria for the Part 3 Register (the Small Ships Register aka SSR) in full ...

-----------------------------
Part 3
For vessels to be registered on Part 3, all the owners listed must be qualified owners.

A small ship may be registered if all of the owners are ordinarily resident in the UK:-

(a) British Citizens

(b) Persons who are nationals of a European Union or Economic Area country other than the United Kingdom and are established* in the UK

(c) British Dependant Territories citizens; British Overseas citizens; persons who under the British Nationality Act 1981 and are British subjects; persons who under the Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order are British Nationals (Overseas), and (d) Commonwealth citizens not falling within those paragraphs.

*Established – It is not sufficient to live in the UK to be ‘established’ in accordance with Articles 48 and 52 of the EU Treaty. To be ‘established’ a person must make an economic contribution to the UK by being the proprietor of a business, being employed, or having very recently retired from such employment, i.e. within the last 6 months. If you have any doubts about your ‘establishment’ you should consult the Registry.

---------------------------------------

Whilst the format and wording is a little convoluted, it is quite clear from the context that all the registered owners have to be normally resident in the UK (second line) and meet specific nationality criteria plus, if not British Citizens, must be economically active in the UK

Being on the electoral roll at a UK domestic address will work (and is reported to do so) even if you don't actually live there because they are unlikely to check beyond that although it's technically a fraudulent application (unless, arguably, you live aboard and spend most of your time in UK waters as you could legitimately claim to be a UK resident of no fixed abode but that's a whole different can of worms!)

 

[mjcoon]

Eligibility for the SSR is based on being established in the UK - nothing to do with citizenship, or with being on the electoral roll, nor having a bank account nor paying tax. However many of those things may well be indicators that you are eligible.

There seems to be no problem for the owner who loves in the UK, but adding the other owners all at the same address is almost certain to raise questions. Not unusual to have husband/wife or partners even if they have different names, but 3 people whose only link is having the same surname is stretching it.

We had an interesting chat with a sailor on The Broads the other week who said that a local yacht might be being used, in his words, as a "knocking shop"!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I've just looked at the form (I registered Capricious on the SSR earlier in the year) and it is clear that by completing the form for multiple owners with false details you would be guilty of making a false declaration and thus liable for criminal charges. The form itself warns of this!

 

[Irish Rover]

Thanks again for all the replies. It's heartening to see how many posters would never consider stretching, bending or breaking any laws even technical laws where a small bit of creativity wouldn't damage or harm anyone else. I guess law enforcement in the UK must be a handy number. I'll report back to my friend.

 

[Bathdave]

I was about to start a new thread following a conversation with someone at my YC last night, but this one seems to be on the same ground

my friend spent a month cruising S Brittany this summer, and was telling me last night they saw quite a few boats, some of them brand new flying the red ensign but once they got alongside they realised they were all French owned, apart from 1 which was German owned

it appears they are registering boats as UK flagged and claiming TVA free status …they believe they can protect this by leaving EU waters once every 18 months

when discussing this with my friend last night, I said I did not believe a boat could be registered and flagged in the U.K. if the owner was not a British citizen …I have learned from this thread that an EU citizen living in the U.K. could also register a boat in the U.K.

I dont know if all the peopLe my friend met were U.K. residents, I suspect not as none of them apparently mentioned it …they aeem to think they have found a loop hole created by Brexit to save themselves paying their home country VAT …I can’t think it’s actually a legitimate loophole and it would seem that they have found a way to falsely register the boat in the U.K. ? Has anyone else come across this ?

 

[dunedin]

I was about to start a new thread following a conversation with someone at my YC last night, but this one seems to be on the same ground

my friend spent a month cruising S Brittany this summer, and was telling me last night they saw quite a few boats, some of them brand new flying the red ensign but once they got alongside they realised they were all French owned, apart from 1 which was German owned

it appears they are registering boats as UK flagged and claiming TVA free status …they believe they can protect this by leaving EU waters once every 18 months

when discussing this with my friend last night, I said I did not believe a boat could be registered and flagged in the U.K. if the owner was not a British citizen …I have learned from this thread that an EU citizen living in the U.K. could also register a boat in the U.K.

I dont know if all the peopLe my friend met were U.K. residents, I suspect not as none of them apparently mentioned it …they aeem to think they have found a loop hole created by Brexit to save themselves paying their home country VAT …I can’t think it’s actually a legitimate loophole and it would seem that they have found a way to falsely register the boat in the U.K. ? Has anyone else come across this ?

As flag state doesn't generally have any relevance to VAT status, they may be wasting their time attempting to use SSR - indeed it is likely just to increase their likelihood of getting a detailed assessment of their paperwork.
And as far as I know, a boat owned or used by an EU resident is not entitled to the 18 month Temporary Import - so they could face an immediate demand for VAT if not already properly VAT paid.

 

[Irish Rover]

I was about to start a new thread following a conversation with someone at my YC last night, but this one seems to be on the same ground

my friend spent a month cruising S Brittany this summer, and was telling me last night they saw quite a few boats, some of them brand new flying the red ensign but once they got alongside they realised they were all French owned, apart from 1 which was German owned

it appears they are registering boats as UK flagged and claiming TVA free status …they believe they can protect this by leaving EU waters once every 18 months

when discussing this with my friend last night, I said I did not believe a boat could be registered and flagged in the U.K. if the owner was not a British citizen …I have learned from this thread that an EU citizen living in the U.K. could also register a boat in the U.K.

I dont know if all the peopLe my friend met were U.K. residents, I suspect not as none of them apparently mentioned it …they aeem to think they have found a loop hole created by Brexit to save themselves paying their home country VAT …I can’t think it’s actually a legitimate loophole and it would seem that they have found a way to falsely register the boat in the U.K. ? Has anyone else come across this ?

Is it possible they may have been Channel Is residents with CI registration which is also a red ensign? Just guessing.

 

[KompetentKrew]

… they were all French owned, apart from 1 which was German owned

it appears they are registering boats as UK flagged and claiming TVA free status …they believe they can protect this by leaving EU waters once every 18 months

when discussing this with my friend last night, I said I did not believe a boat could be registered and flagged in the U.K. if the owner was not a British citizen …I have learned from this thread that an EU citizen living in the U.K. could also register a boat in the U.K.

I dont know if all the peopLe my friend met were U.K. residents, I suspect not as none of them apparently mentioned it …

Apparently any EU-incorporated company can register a vessel on Part 1.

This - the frenchies claiming TVA free status, I mean - sounds like one of those loopholes that will get closed tight when the authorities notice.

 

[Bathdave]

Is it possible they may have been Channel Is residents with CI registration which is also a red ensign? Just guessing.

Categorically not - my friend and I are both CI residents and it was self evident that these boat owner were not !

 

[ashtead]

Maybe the EU Citizens are re.cently retired HGV drivers or French chefs ?

 

[Irish Rover]

Categorically not - my friend and I are both CI residents and it was self evident that these boat owner were not !

Sorrrrrry. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[Koeketiene]

As flag state doesn't generally have any relevance to VAT status, they may be wasting their time attempting to use SSR

Can't say I agree with this.
There are countries where when you want to register a boat as a private citizen proof of VAT paid status is an integral parts of the registration process.

 

[westernman]

There are countries where when you want to register a boat as a private citizen proof of VAT paid status is an integral parts of the registration process.

I think this is true for most registries.
The UK and other red duster registries being a very well known exception to the rule.