SSB ATU - HAM AND MARINE?

ATUs

Come in many shapes and sizes

There are manual ones - the cheaper option. Where you twiddle knobs and and watch the SWR meter - If you dont mind twiddling these are the cheapest and best.

Some are specific to a single type of transceiver. these are often linked by a data lead to the TRX and this gives a preset config to theATU - clever but almost always limited to amateur bands. Also may only give a narrow range of impedance matching - typically will only do any good if the antenna has 3:1 VSWR or better. These are usless for marine application.

Other automatic types - the most expensive - use a bit of the tuning signal to measure and correct the the VSWR over a wide range of both frequency and impedance.

Or

Why not have a go at making one.

Buy a cheap VSWR meter 2 biggish variable capacitors and a coil of copper wire an hours work with a soldering iron and there you are.

A good feeling using homebuilt gear, even simple stuff like an atu.
 
...........Thanks for this - when retirement comes in about 3 years, we'll be sailing off into the wide blue, and so been thinking about SSB. Unfortunately I am pretty ignorant on this and have seen various reports that SSB is dying out and people are moving to Satphones. What's the general view on this? ............

In fact the principle reason for having an SSB on board is the nets plus weather routing as provided by people like Herb in the Atlantic and the NZ guy in Pacific. SSB is also a very important safety aid. Whatever is said about 406 Epirb, the SSB is as likely to help you in moments of stress because it is the one link you have with other cruisers. The Indian ocean net helped save 5 yachts being attacked by pirates - Several boats with problems going up the Red Sea got into difficulties and were helped via SSB.

Having said that it is not much use in the Med - nice if you have it but not important - crossing the Atlantic independently it puts you in touch with Herb and other weather sources and for the Caribbean and Pacific it is really the only way to get in touch or a big assistance in getting help if you really really need it.

The Posturing of OFCOM over set types and operators licensing for small pleasure craft is of course ridiculous and shows ignorance of the reality - I doubt there is a single person there who has cruised the West Indies/Pacific & Indian Oceans in a small boat so they legislate like a bunch of out of touch, old, self important fools. I am surprised that the yachting press or RYA have not taken up this issue, but then only a tiny, but I suspect growing ,section of yachts people do venture so far from home waters.

Having said all that, OFCOM is in fact impotent once you leave UK waters - they have agreements with lots of other countries but do you believe for a moment that the USA is going to take you to court for doing what is legal in their country and illegal in the UK?? Got better things to do..

buy your Icom set from outside the UK and have it shipped here and the warranty will be fine cos it will already be snipped. They will sell you snipped maritime sets if you take delivery outside the UK. As for operators licensing - what a load of very very expensive rubbish. Again aimed at commercial vessels operators. Anybody who can operate a mobile phone can operate an SSB - do you care about the antenna length/frequency of mobile phone mast? The operation of a ham or maritime SSB is simpler than a mobile telephone - requires you to read the instruction book - ask a couple of questions about propagation - and do it - not a steep learning curve.
The concept your lack of knowledge might endanger others is out of date. 99% of all safety operations do not involve SSB transmissions - Commercial craft use sat phones - EPIRB or VHF for local contact.
 
Wow, I Must say my heart sank when I saw this thread going the same way as similar previous ones, but I actually think this has been very useful.

I do think it is important to stress the differences between an amateur radio qualification and something like the LRC. The former is almost entirely technical; concerned with an understanding of how radios work. The LRC is almost entirely procedural; concerned with what buttons to press and when. (Can't comment on the GOC, don't know much about it)

Thus an amateur is trusted (indeed expected) to broadcast with any bit of kit and do it safely and without adversely affecting other users of the radio spectrum. If an amateur chooses to rip the guts out of 3 sets, add a bit of junk he found in a skip and use that to call a mate in Australia, that is entirely within the spirit of his hobby (the fact that he will void a warranty or two is between him and the radio manufacturer).

That is ENTIRELY different to an LRC holder, who may not use a non type-approved set. When I read LRC holders moaning that the rules are stupid, why can't they modify their SSB and join the amateur nets, I am torn between an innate sympathy for anarchy and a recognition that there must be rules over who transmits what on the radio spectrum. On shore, if you transmit illegally with any significant power you are very likely to be tracked-down. Just because this is unlikely to happen at sea does not mean that you are not capable of causing grief to other users. An opened set is entirely open, with it you can transmit on any frequency within the capability of the set and interfere with beacons, aircraft, the BBC world service (you cad), etc etc

As has been said, this difference is reflected in the design of sets. While internally almost identical, the difference is that marine HF sets are entirely 'channelised'. This would drive an amateur insane with frustration even on a 'open' set.

(G1 - gosh you must be old! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
 
[ QUOTE ]
There is *nothing* to the best of my knowledge in the amateur rules and regulations that suggests that I cannot be in possession of a set that will also transmit on other frequencies. Steve g1fip

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you will find if you read your BR68 (terms of use for Amateurs for those that aren't familiar) it explicitly tells you what you can access. Anything that isn't in there can't be accessed.

Mike
 
Hi Bergman,
Thanks for your answer, It actually right to the point, and as I suspected the type of ATU that has preset configurations would be unlikely to work on marine and ham bands.
When I started back in the 70s I had to build my own ATUs and Power supplies, in fact only the base unit, an FT200, was purchased. But I don't really want the task of building an automatic ATU now. I suppose I could hardwire presets for each of the marine/ham bands. Given that the aerial will remain a fixed 12m backstay.
As for all the other comments, I'm not really to bothered about legislation, the SSB will not be on the boat when in UK waters only when I leave for the big sea, and I will mostly be using it when offshore outside of most territorial waters. I will just have to keep an eye out for the Offcom launch chasing me as I leave the UK.
 
Might be better to stick to the marine stuff Mike. He's right. Intermediate and above amateurs are entitled to construct equipment from scratch, even including the design stage. You're dead right in your other post about band usage, but the equipment used doesn't need any sort of type approval unless it's sold commercially. Even at the level of band usage the prescription is to only use bands which have amateur access. You might (in fact are very likely to) have constructed equipent which will operate outside the amateur band but you're not allowed to do it, is the point. Amateur radio is for self-education.
 
[ QUOTE ]


Actually you will find if you read your BR68 (terms of use for Amateurs for those that aren't familiar) it explicitly tells you what you can access. Anything that isn't in there can't be accessed.


[/ QUOTE ]

BR68 does give details of what you are allowed to access but this is where the difference between other radio users and amateurs comes in. A radio amateur can have and use a radio that is capable of operating outside of the frequencies listed in BR68 but they are not allowed to use the radio on frequencies not covered in BR68. This means as a radio amateur I can legally use a Marine SSB set that has been converted to cover the amateur bands on the amateur bands but as soon as I transit on a marine band I am operating illegally.

Other radio user are restricted to only using approved radios which by their very nature stop them from transmitting out of band.

Jonathan
 
As so often the case

Selectively you may be right

But

Many amateurs use ex-military equipment and equipment from USA and equipment built by their own fair hands.

I doubt any of these items were submitted to Ministry of posts and telecommunications. (Actually I did'nt know there was such a ministry, do you know who the minister is. There used to be a Postmaster General who might have had a say, and there was once a chap called Stonehouse, but he got locked up I think)

Seems I've been operating illegally these past 35 years

Oh well

See you in the nick
 
"As for all the other comments, I'm not really to bothered about legislation, the SSB will not be on the boat when in UK waters only when I leave for the big sea, and I will mostly be using it when offshore outside of most territorial waters. I will just have to keep an eye out for the Offcom launch chasing me as I leave the UK"

Paul

I like your style.

Hope you have a good trip.
 
[ QUOTE ]
This means as a radio amateur I can legally use a Marine SSB set that has been converted to cover the amateur bands on the amateur bands but as soon as I transit on a marine band I am operating illegally.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can defo see the principle behind the statement but I'm not sure that your conclusion is correct, I would suggest a call to Alan Betts of the Amateur Radio Unit at Ofcom. It was explained to me some time ago that Amateurs can make their own equipment to operate within Ham bands but if they are buying off-the-shelf kit it must still be T approved.

Mike
 
First I apologise I assumed that you were referring to Marine equipment. The MPT became RA but the specs retained the "MPT" designators up to the introduction of the R&TTE Directive.

Again I can see the principle, the equipment thus acquired was destined for cannibalisation and modification to operate within Ham bands therefore it didn't require MPT specs. However, this does not apply to equipment acquired for modification to operate outside of the Ham service, say in the Maritime service.

Mike
 
PLEASE STOP STOP STOP
So many of these arguments have been thrashed out so many times before on this and other forums. I only asked a simple question about ATUs.
However, to be constructive, I think it might be best if we could think of a way to improve the situation. It obviously is not right at the moment.
Firstly, I like the idea of equipment being approved, this tells me it has been tested by an independant body and proved to do what it says it does, without any side affects
Secondly, with safety in mind, and recent developments like DSC and GPS, a certain amount of training must make sense.
Also I think from recent developments, the RA/Ofcomm seem to be thinking it's better to have people installing VHF's for safety and are prepared to loose revenue to encourage this.
Perhaps the RYA might lobby for a simpler solution, self testing/self certification. LRC exemption for Radio Amateurs, perhaps Radio amateur clubs could be encouraged to help yachties learn the basics of HF. My local club is always keen to find new revenue and also has a yachtmaster in its folds.

I think the number of SSB users amongst the yachting commmunity is probably quite low, so exemptions shouldnt cause too much of a problem.
Also as far as I am concerned, if my icom rig has been approved for Marine use, and by holding a button down, while powering up means it can transmit on ham bands, then that is a valid and legal function of the rig and was there when it was tested so it can't validate it's type approval.
I like the idea of saying you can do what you like with your SSB as long as you know what your doing and dont cause interferance. I think this is closer to the principal of ham radio.
Sorry to rant.
 
Mike,

It tells me what frequency bands I can transmit on...of course.
It does not tell me that I cannot use a radio that I have modified, have built, or transmits on every frequency known to man, as long as I only use that equipment within amateur bands, with the appropriate power levels, and with due deference to other spectrum users with regard to non-interference. The amateur service actively encourages equipment building and modification. It is the very essence of the hobby.
So there is nothing in any rules that does not allow me to carry my FT847, modded for GCTX for use as /MM with marine frequencies available in an emergency.

Can you tell me Mike please, who is the right person inside Ofcom, to start the ball rolling with, to try and get these ridiculous anomalies with regard to Marine/Ham, Type Approval and LRC/SRC examination looked at seriously?

Steve.
 
IMHO



Mike and I have to work within the law, rules and regs as they stand at this time.

You seem to be trying to read the rules to suit your needs.
I have to say in a court of law it won't hold any water, no pun intended.

The facts are:-

You can, if you have a ham licence, use a modified marine SSB on Ham frequencies only.

You can not use a modified ham radio on marine frequencies or anything else for that matter.

You can not use a ham radio on both marine and ham.
You can not use a modified marine radio on both.

As the rules and the law stands it is one thing or the other not both.

This is not a UK law it is a EU law.

Ofcom are here to enforce it.
We as the manufacturer have to work with in the law.

I am shocked and suprised by the comments from a man who is a ham trainer.
Ham radio users are the very first to complain if there is an infringement on the Ham bands.

In the avionics world paragliders use modified 2m radio's on and just outside the ham band.
They use it for safety and comms.

Is this right? NO it is not.
It is same in principle as to what you are suggesting here.

Regards
 
[ QUOTE ]
Also I think from recent developments, the RA/Ofcomm seem to be thinking it's better to have people installing VHF's for safety and are prepared to loose revenue to encourage this.
Perhaps the RYA might lobby for a simpler solution, self testing/self certification. LRC exemption for Radio Amateurs, perhaps Radio amateur clubs could be encouraged to help yachties learn the basics of HF. My local club is always keen to find new revenue and also has a yachtmaster in its folds.

I think the number of SSB users amongst the yachting commmunity is probably quite low, so exemptions shouldnt cause too much of a problem.


[/ QUOTE ]



The problem here is that the RYA dont really understand radio at all.
Their instructors are mostly sailing instructors who have been trained by the RYA to teach the SRC as well, without any real understanding of the technicalities behind the subject.
They also have a vested commercial interest in running the SRC, for which they get income, so are highly unlikely to want to exempt people from it.

I cannot see anything in the SRC that a licensed radio amateur would not be able to adapt to very quickly, so IMHO should be exempt from it, as should communications professionals.

It is the MCA who have responsibility for the LRC.
I cannot see why for Amateurs there could not be a quick on line tutorial and exam
to satisfy the requirements of the LRC and remove the need for the long course away from home which is purely designed for non-technical people.
Because an Amateur is already familiar with so many of the operating procedures and practices and the concepts behind it all, it is a need to "Adapt" to the marine practices rather than learn everything from scratch that is required..a sort of conversion course is all that is really neccessary and this could easily be done on line.

The type approval and use of Amateur gear on marine frquencies and vice versa is
another issue and needs sorting out. It is obviously completely stupid to require licensed hams to carry two SSB radios on board.
I think marine Hams need to get together and form a lobby group to get all of these anomalies changed....any takers??

It's all a bit of a mess really and the result of the RA farming out responsibility for
training and certification and licensing to other bodies with commercial SLA's.
It is ludicrous that we have one organisation responsible for VHF and another for MF/HF.
All needs sorting out and tidying up.
Why not give it all to the RSGB for instance, who would be capable of doing both VHF and HF/MF, because they are the organisation with the greatest radio expertise.


Steve.
 
As an outsider looking in Jon, if I understand all your points correctly I think that it is correct for me to add that all those same constraints apply not only for the EU but also for the rest of the world's nations that matter. That is likely to be a surprise to many given the comments made in many previous threads.

The following is not me foolishly telling you how to suck eggs but is meant as just general comment.

It may be a surprise to some that even in the USA (as in most other places)commercially sold amateur radios must be type approved and it is not legal to operate amateur radios on marine frequencies unless type approved for both services (I would assume that for radios such as the IC-M802 the fact of their meeting type approval for marine service makes type approval for the lesser amateur ones a mainly process matter rather than a technical one).

The difficulty in the EU is that their type approval requirements for marine are extraordinary whereas the rest of the world (in the main) accepts common requirements, so as has been pointed out before no manufacturer is going to build sets for the EU market unless he thinks his sales there will comprise a significant amount in comparison to his international sales elsewhere. How easy it would be for a UK move to change the EU requirements to which it is a bound party, I could not comment. But given the usual state of bureaucracies I suspect it would not be rapid.

Regarding Steve's points on certification, etc all western countries, and maybe without exception all others as well, require operators on vessels undertaking foreign voyages (or carrying equipment capable of international communications eg MF/HF) to be certificated as a consequence of international requirements and I suspect that is not going to change in a hurry. Some of us are aware of how long it takes even menial changes to get through the hoops and then be ratified.

I do not think it is likely that amateur sets will ever in the medium term be accepted for marine communications unless specifically built to be so eg the SGC one. That for reasons of operability requirements and technical eg the requirement for crystal heater with radio on standby (someone recently posted with some surprise that they had just discovered that the IC-M802 draws current even when turned off - it does as do others to maintain frequency stability at turn on, in the M802's case approximately 250mA goes down the drain even when it is off).

With respect to modifying amateur sets to cover marine (or other non amateur)frequencies I could not comment on the UK situation but whilst in most places I suspect such would nullify the set's type approval that would be overtaken by the amateur's right to experiment and do his own builds. Of course, nowhere would the set be considered legal for operation on marine frequencies regardless of the operator's certification unless for the case of an emergency (for which purpose I think carrying a modified amateur set is a good idea if a marine approved ssb is not carried).

I personally agree with Steve on some matters he expressed above and in some of his previous posts. For example, that those who have significant experience in other services have an easy (and cheap) route to certification. I think I am similar to Steve (if I recollect his previous posts correctly, sorry if not) in that I have a university degree in electronic physics and electromagnetism (from a university with a reputation in study of antipodal and other HF propagation - perhaps why I can work UK amateurs sitting in their cars from my boat around from my antipodal side of the world /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif), am a radio amateur, and have frequently managed projects involving radio coms for marine, aeronautical, etc. In my case, in my jurisdiction I could just roll up for my equivalent of your LRC and sit it (and I believe that remains the case) and it seems silly that does not seem that is possible in the UK (perhaps it is, in which case maybe the possibility needs to become better known so that people don't assume that they cannot).

I am sure some of the usual protagonists will regard this all as cosying up to the regulators, but similarly to what I understand the likes of Mike and Jon are saying, I am only stating how it is. However, I would add that I do not manage my own legal obligations on the words of marina scuttlebutt nor on those of some who have done a trade wind drift around the world and which somehow gives them PhD's in international jurisprudence and radio physics. I prefer to fit in with requirements but do say that doing so should be made as easy as possible within the international ones, by ones own authorities.

John
 
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