SSB ATU - HAM AND MARINE?

No I am not suggesting that anyone breaks the law...extremely grey as it is.

For my own part I will continue to carry an amateur rig on my boat which will cover marine frequencies, which could be used for emergencies if the need ever arose. As I understand it marine emergencies are exempt from legislation are they not?

Of course there may be commercial reasons why it suits both Icom and Ofcom to leave the rules the way they are, surely you sell more radios this way and maybe Ofcom get more income as well...I dont know for sure, but it must suit them to fragment it this way, as well as the training and licensing.

I cannot see why you are shocked at my suggestions.
I am only trying to get a better deal for Radio Amateurs, who have already gone through much more extensive training, (which takes an evening a week for a year)...at least, than the LRC or the silly SRC.

I agree with you about the aeronautical infringements I do not advocate piracy,
but I want to see a better deal for Maritime Hams and the way it is set up at the moment is quite frankly ridiculous.
As the law stands, for HF/MF A ham has to carry two radios, even though both you and I know that there is technically/electronically very little difference between the two. Even a ham who has done the LRC and keeps completely legal,
has to carry two radios at a cost of about £2500, is it any wonder that people get extremely irritated with the situation.

Would you not also agree with me that it is crazy that none of these rules apply in the United States and lots of other countries. So could you explain what is so different about the US to the UK?? Why do the FCC allow it it there, and Ofcom dont here, is the spectrum that much different in Europe??

So in a nutshell what I want to see is, a) Licensed Amateurs exempt from the SRC
b) A conversion course for the LRC rather than the full three day course with overnight stays, possibly on-line,
c) Radio Amateurs allowed to use Marine SSB radios for amateur use and vice versa.

I think I would be quite happy to purchase an 802 from you if I could also use it for Amateur Communications, but as the law stands I cant, so as I have greater need for Ham with a bit of emergency marine if required, I will stay the way I am.

I dont think anyone could fail to agree that it's all a bit of a mess really isnt it?

There could be a very easy solution, and extend the amateur licence by notice of variation, upon application, to allow seagoing amateurs to use marine frequencies
for non-amateur communication when at sea only...simple, and removes the need for all the exams and type approvals.
The NoV's could be limited and monitored, and restricted to those amateurs who are also in possession of a ships radio licence. I cant see why this could not be done to cover what is a glaring anomaly.

Steve.
 
I don't think the law is grey at all.
It is clear on this matter.
It is very clear to me.

I resent the implication re us selling two bits of kit.
We do not have an EU approved SSB.
There for Icom UK have nothing to gain here other than offering you the right advice.

So why is it ok for you to use you Marine SSB for both or your ham HF set for both but not the paraglider?

Are you saying that as a licence Ham you should be allowed to break the law?

So if I were a pilot and a ham it would be ok for me to use my IC-706 for both flying and my hobby?

Regards
 
I think the problem is that the world has moved on but the legislators are stuck in the past.

Before the Email and now the mobile telephone and text messages and sat phones it was difficult to communicate over long distances. Difficult! Impossible unless you had a radio transceiver -

I know hams get great pleasure form building their kits or txing over vast distances with little power - it is plainly a fascinating hobby.

The problem now is that the legislation for marine HF radio is out of date. The superb sets built by Icom and others for ham and SSB use make transmitting and receiving very simple. Almost nobody wants to do it except hams and a very few people in yachts who want to use the maritime equivalent of 'citizens band radio'.

The fact they have bothered to install it and operate it makes it unlikely they will misuse this facility and frankly it is the qualified but bored inebriated officers of commercial ships that most frequently behave badly on radios.

The SSB radio is an obsolete, old fashioned, method of communication which is of interest only to a few shipping companies that cannot afford sat phones and a few thousand cruising yachts, of all nationalities who want/need to keep in touch with each other.

It is worth banging on about it because the legislation should be changed to enable the very few easier access to what is only citizens band radio by another name.
 
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It tells me what frequency bands I can transmit on...of course.

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That is of course the point, it doesn't imply that you are free to do anymore.



[/ QUOTE ]Can you tell me Mike please, who is the right person inside Ofcom, to start the ball rolling with, to try and get these ridiculous anomalies with regard to Marine/Ham, Type Approval and LRC/SRC examination looked at seriously?

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This is a nice thought but Ofcom only represents the UK and to change the decisions of the IMO and the ITU on cross-service use of radio equipment you would have to get quite a few other Countries to change their minds on the previous agreements.

Mike
 
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No I am not suggesting that anyone breaks the law...extremely grey as it is.


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But you are here
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For my own part I will continue to carry an amateur rig on my boat which will cover marine frequencies, which could be used for emergencies if the need ever arose. As I understand it marine emergencies are exempt from legislation are they not?

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No the "possibility" of "maybe" using equipment in an Emergency doesn not meant that you can break the Law. The Regs say that in a Distress situation that you can use any means but not that you can ignore the rules before a Distress situation arises.

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Of course there may be commercial reasons why it suits both Icom and Ofcom to leave the rules the way they are, surely you sell more radios this way and maybe Ofcom get more income as well...I dont know for sure, but it must suit them to fragment it this way, as well as the training and licensing.

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This is quite a petty thing to say, especially coming from someone who as Radio Amateur should have a better understanding of the international dimension of spectrum management

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I am only trying to get a better deal for Radio Amateurs, who have already gone through much more extensive training, (which takes an evening a week for a year)...at least, than the LRC or the silly SRC.

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The vast majority of Marine Radio users are not Radio Amateurs and Administrations have to make rules for the majority not for the sometimes vocal minority.

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Would you not also agree with me that it is crazy that none of these rules apply in the United States and lots of other countries. So could you explain what is so different about the US to the UK?? Why do the FCC allow it it there, and Ofcom dont here, is the spectrum that much different in Europe??

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I'd suggest a bit of research before making this kind of statement. A visit to the FCC's website will disabuse you of the notion that the rules are not the same.

Mike
 
Jon,
No offence intended and I am not suggesting that anybody should break the law.
As far as I am aware I am not breaking the law at the moment, I can use my ham rig /MM and I have it for a marine emergency should the need (hopefully not) arise.
When I am outside of EU territorial waters I could, If I wished, do with it what I please, although I wouldnt because I am a responsible radio user.
I cannot understand why you are so against getting these anomalies changed, surely it would benefit your company, to have an all in one radio that would do both Amateur and marine. Of course you have it now...but silly rules prevent you selling it to the combined Ham/marine market at least in the UK anyway.
So what's the problem, I would have thought that a company as great and respected as Icom, and with such a long and trusted association with amateur Radio would want to do what they could to help marine amateurs.
Surely you should be in the driving seat to get the rules changed?
It could only benefit your sales surely?

Steve.
 
Steve

You are very wrong
You have to comply with the laws and regs of your flag state no matter where you are in the world.

You are from the UK, your licence is from the UK, you have to comply with UK law.

In the real world the demand for a combined ham/marine SSB would be very small.
I doubt we would even contemplate the R&D.

We are 3 to 4 years behind the US for a new marine SSB because the demand for a standard marine SSB in the EU is very low.
The demand for what you are suggesting is even lower.

There is no where in the world, that I am aware of, that allows you to do what you are suggesting.
I stand to be proved wrong.

The M802 is Marine with Ham RX only.
Anyone can legally listen to Ham broadcasts.
It is not Marine and Ham RX/TX.

Also your Ham radio does not have DSC.

I am against your suggestion because it would mean those marine SSB users withoput a ham licence would be unable to own this "new" radio.

The first offence is owning a radio that breaks the law, the second offence is using it.
If your radio can TX and RX on both you are breaking the law.
Plain and simple.

Regards
 
The M802 is Marine with Ham RX only.
Anyone can legally listen to Ham broadcasts.
It is not Marine and Ham RX/TX.

At the risk of sticking my head into Icom's affairs /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif perhaps some elaboration is required to give a correct understanding of the situation.

Unless there has been a very recent change to the cloning of M802's the radio is naturally TX and RX from around 1.8MHz to 30MHz. I think in most countries the radio is delivered enabled as you say for TX on marine channels only, but the enablement to 1.8 - 30 MHz TX is a simple advertised, but not in the manual, power on with 2 of the keypad keys depressed and which is able to be performed by anyone.

If I remember correctly, both of the 802's that Icom have provided me for my own use were delivered not enabled for TX 1.8 - 30 MHz but I was provided with the enabling keypress combination (but they did know that I was licenced for services other than marine).

I do not know if the M802 is specifically type approved by the FCC for amateur service but if not they must regard it as a complete non issue, else there would be a goodly number of US amateurs now unsuspectingly operating with illegal radios and many retailers would be open to investigation.

Here in NZ I again do not know if the M802 is specifically type approved for the amateur service I suspect that it is though because I think here the situation is that the manufacturer only has to certify that the radio complies with the required standards and I would assume that any MF/HF radio meeting the marine ones would meet the amateur ones as amatter of course. In any event I would be confident that reason would prevail.

I completely agree with your comments on the size of the market in the EU for a dual service radio if it had to meet the EU type approvals for marine (after all no one outside the EU seems much keen to make a pleasure/small commercial ssb for the EU market let alone a dual approved one).

The key to what people are wanting must lie at the dismembering of the EU's peculiar to itself type approval requirements for marine MF/HF radios. I would assume that accepting the same standards as the rest of the world for marine would automatically enable the same radios to be capable of also meeting the type approval requirements for amateur.

John
 
Jon and Mike,

The erudite Mike Martin shoots me down in flames again.....
I'm sorry if I have offended you and I didnt mean to be petty with regard to the sales.
Pardon me if I seem obtuse, but I cant get my head around this.
Leaving aside the international spectrum issues, what you both seem to be saying is that if I carry on board my vessel an amateur radio, because that is not a marine radio I am breaking the law.
My amateur licence expressly allows me to operate as /MM.
Just because that said radio is capable of operation outside of amateur bands, as many many amateur radios are, this then breaks the law....is that correct and which particular part of the WT act does it break??
Even though I have not transmitted outside of amateur bands? is this correct?
we need to be very clear on this. I always thought that an offence is committed only when an unauthorised transmission takes place.
If I buy a commercial land mobile SSB (for instance) and then use this on my boat for Amateur use when/MM this then breaks the law with regard to "possession" of said radio, even though my Amateur licence encourages me to perform this sort of feat under self training.
I also have a radio that covers both 2 metre Ham and Marine VHF which I converted from a Land mobile set. Are you saying that I cannot be in possession of this on my boat either?
Which set of rules take precedence here amateur or marine??, because the amateur licence seems to have no rules about equipment only frequencies and power level and modulation modes.
This has great implications for any /MM ham. Because what you seem to be saying that I can only carry on board an amateur radio that is only capable of transmission on amateur bands.
Am I reading this wrong?

With regard to the LRC/SRC which is a separate and (one assumes) local to the UK issue why cant this be changed for amateurs and other communications professionals.
No one has yet given a valid reason. I will concede that some "adaptive"training may be required for the LRC, but the SRC for a ham is a joke for which he has to pay about £60 quid to hear it told, before a certificate is issued, and the LRC for someone who is already going to be familiar with the vast majority of operating procedures and practices, propogation and certainly all the concepts behind marine radio systems, a three day course costing IRO £350 plus hotel bills is extremely harsh.
Who is there in Ofcom or any other organisation who can help with this, or will we draw a blank official stare there too??

Steve.
 
Steve

Lets see if I can make it a tad clearer.

You can use any radio you want on you ham licence for ham use only.

You can only use radio's approved for use on the marine band on the marine band.

You can, and many do, take old PMR kit mod it and use it on the Ham bands be it 2m or anything else.

You can not take a PMR radio and use it on the marine bands unless it is approved for such use.

Also no PMR radio have DSC.

We have one fixed mobile VHF PMR radio approved for marine use but only as a shore station.

I would have to say that, IMHO, what you are doing is very wrong..
I am sure Mike will confirm or not as the case may be.

Regards
 
Ships

Listen I have no problem with any of your comments.
It is so refreshing to read your replies!!

I can only speak for the UK, I have little or nothing to do with either NZ or USA.

I am sure that when the new SSB arrives here at the end of the year it will be Marine only.
There are no plans to approve it for both.
In fact it has not even been mentioned.

The plan is to make it TX and RX marine then also ham RX.

Whilst we can make suggestions to the powers at be, we don't make the rules we just have to work within them.

Regards
 
I suspect that strictly speaking what Mike and Jon are saying is correct from 2 points of view.

Firstly, I think they are saying that it is illegal in the UK to possess radio equipment capable of TX outside of the frequencies that one is licenced for. That is common for many countries. And the fact that one is an amateur does not nullify that - after all how can converting a radio to operate outside of amateur bands be regarded as amateur experimentation?

Secondly, I cannot speak specifically for the UK but I suspect that strictly, in most countries, if one carries on board any radio apparatus capable of TX on the marine frequencies then the vessel must carry a licence to operate on marine frequencies. From that, again in most countries, the radio apparatus carried that is capable of TX on marine frequencies and causing the vessel to carry a licence has to be type approved for the marine service. Naturally, the amateur radio would not be so approved and so it would be illegal to carry it.

Just stating it as it probably strictly is, and am not promoting anything, but I am sure that most states ignore the mental gymnastics of interfering with amateurs owning 1.8 - 30 MHz TX capable equipment providing it is always operated legally and is in a legal installation. However, installing such a radio on a vessel such that it became part of a boat carrying a marine radio licence but not carrying any relevant approved marine radio apparatus would I am sure be generally judged as being illegal unless one could provide a sound argument as to why it was necessary as an amateur to install a radio with such out of band capabilities which would be illegal if transmitted on while in the amateur service (I could not think of such an argument).

John
 
Thanks for the clarification on the EU intentions - I guess it will be called an M801?

Side tracking a little (perhaps refreshingly) I had the opportunity of comparing the M601 and M602 VHF sets and discovered that the M601 does not have an attenuator whilst the M602 does (like all the other non EU Icom sets I come across). So wish to ask you - are attenuators not accepted for the EU marine VHF radios such as the M601?

John
 
Jon, as I said before I will be first in line to buy an Icom marine SSB from you, if I can legally use it on Amateur freqs as well. I only want one SSB on my boat, dont care if it costs.
That is all I want, (and not to have to pay 350 quid and waste 3 days of my life for the LRC).

Steve.
 
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The erudite Mike Martin shoots me down in flames again.....
I'm sorry if I have offended you and I didnt mean to be petty with regard to the sales.

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Thank you for the compliment (however backhanded it may have been meant) and I wouldn't worry about offending me it's even less likely that I am now only trying to be helpful having left the role of "regulator" behind.

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Leaving aside the international spectrum issues

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You can't really but I'll try.

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what you both seem to be saying is that if I carry on board my vessel an amateur radio, because that is not a marine radio I am breaking the law.

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No what we are both saying is that you cannot legally carry and use a piece of equipment that can operate within both services as there is no equipment that can legally do it. This is because none of the organisations responsible for managing these services see any real benefit to the majority of users and therefore have not developed standards to which it should be built.

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My amateur licence expressly allows me to operate as /MM.

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That is to operate on Amateur frequencies whilst on a boat, Maritime Mobile is a specific term within the Amateur Service.

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which particular part of the WT act does it break??

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It breaks the bit that you are informed of through your BR68 Terms of use.

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If I buy a commercial land mobile SSB (for instance) and then use this on my boat for Amateur use when/MM this then breaks the law with regard to "possession" of said radio, even though my Amateur licence encourages me to perform this sort of feat under self training.

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If you are using it within the terms of your BR68 and its Type Approval which it has because it is not "home build" then you are Maritime Mobile.

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I also have a radio that covers both 2 metre Ham and Marine VHF which I converted from a Land mobile set. Are you saying that I cannot be in possession of this on my boat either?

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Call Alan Betts (Hd of Amateur) at Ofcom, he should be able to help.

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Which set of rules take precedence here amateur or marine??, because the amateur licence seems to have no rules about equipment only frequencies and power level and modulation modes.

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On a boat? I would have thought that it's really quite obvious which rules will have precedence.

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This has great implications for any /MM ham. Because what you seem to be saying that I can only carry on board an amateur radio that is only capable of transmission on amateur bands.

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That's about the size and shape of it yes.

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With regard to the LRC/SRC which is a separate and (one assumes) local to the UK issue why cant this be changed for amateurs and other communications professionals.

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The SRC, LRC and all of the Maritime Operator Certificates exist every where in the World. They are not a UK issue, their requirements are laid down in Article 47 of the International Radio Regulations.

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No one has yet given a valid reason. I will concede that some "adaptive"training may be required for the LRC, but the SRC for a ham is a joke

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Someone has already mentioned that the SRC teaches Marine usage NOT technical competence. Having an Amateur qualification does NOT require you to demonstrate competence at making and understanding Marine protocols.

Mike
 
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Jon, as I said before I will be first in line to buy an Icom marine SSB from you, if I can legally use it on Amateur freqs as well. I only want one SSB on my boat, dont care if it costs.
That is all I want, (and not to have to pay 350 quid and waste 3 days of my life for the LRC).

Steve.

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I feel I must point out the flaw. You will still require the LRC to operate on Marine SSB frequencies to be legal to use Marine SSB equipment your HAM licence doesn't cover it.

Mike (ducks).
 
OK Mike, thanks for the reply, and no, the reference to your erudite reply was a compliment not a sarcasm. It's not personal. I know you dont make the regs, however scatty they are.
Maybe I'll just get an iridium sat phone and stay legal, and keep my FT847 just for amateur.
It's a great shame because I love radio but it seems there is no way that it can be accomodated, so I'll give in and give it a miss. Working around the regs is just too much hassle and possibly the likelihood of getting any changes made must be close to zero.

Alan Betts?
Not a name I'm familiar with.
Last time I had anything to do with the RA, (1998) it was Karen Scott..met her several times at national packet radio meetings.
I heard vaguely that she went off to have a baby...has she left altogether then?

Steve.
 
The idea that the RAE is an entirely technical exam isnt exactly true, part one of the "old" RAE dealt with operating procedures and practices, which was everything from phonetic alphabet to international comms procedures, non interference, bandplans, third party traffic handling (including emergency communications), international prowords, Q codes, and many other subjects closely related to the LRC as well.
Part two was the purely technical examination.

The idea that the SRC is going to teach an experienced amateur anything is just bunkum. The two protocols are so closely related.
A days course and £60 quid for an amateur to learn the format of a mayday message, and two prowords seelonce/finee, which dont normally appear in the standard set seems a bit harsh Mike. It's just back of fag packet stuff. DSC is after all, digital selcall that all amateurs will be familiar with from repeater operation.
Navtex is just slow packet radio, again covered in the RAE.
The SRC is designed for people who have no experience of operating any sort of radio, marine or otherwise. It's very poor that peoples experience in a closely related field is not recognised, and we get lumped in with idiots who dont even know which way round to hold the microphone.
Dont laugh, my wife told me on her course there were at least two people who didnt know that. She thought the whole thing was appalling.
If one is taking a university degree or HNC/D in a related field you get credits for having passed the RAE. So why doesnt ofcom recognise it also??

Steve.
 
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