Fire99
Well-Known Member
I'd get a new skipper!
Well I have to admit I've never had any of these moments when I've been skipper. Being the crew can feel a bit like being moving balast! 
Squib racing - equipment
- Thread starter Fire99
- Start date
Well I have to admit I've never had any of these moments when I've been skipper. Being the crew can feel a bit like being moving balast! William_H
Well-Known Member
Yacht clubs and racing
Appologies for resurecting an old thread and then drifting it. I have been thinking about the implications of Yacht Clubs and Racing responsibilities.
When Cruising Yacht Club ran a Sydney to Hobart race some years back and several yachts were lost with several crew also lost the resulting inquests brought to light the question of club responsibility. of course they said in SI that it is totally the skipper's responsibility to continue to sail or not the club running the race came in for criticism. This was mainly along the lines of weather forecast reporting and of training of crew and safety standards of boats and equipment. They then raised these standards to protect themselves and now I believe you must have several crew that have done the race and a large portion of the crew who have done safety survival training. Of course PLB harness and LJ are mandatory along with trackiong and reporting equipment. Regardless the race left a lot of club officials traumatised by the tragedy.
Back to fire 99 experience. it does seem to me that it was a near tragedy and that the the club were remiss on several levels. I don't believe in this day and age that clubs can simply wash their hands of responsibilities by making skipper responsible.
Some will complain bitterly that we (you UK) are becoming a Nanny state and personal risk and responsibilities are being smothered. The fact is the western world are becoming more inclined to be a Nanny state. For any country or club to buck this trend is to leave themselves open to criticism in face of tragedies. (I get the impression Australia is ahead of UK in this area. ie becoming the Nanny state)
In our Swan river area there are about 12clubs of various sizes catering to perhaps one or 2 thousand race crew on sat and Sun of summer. History has shown that every few years there is a tragedy in yacht racing. This means that chances are relatively high certainly not remote that there will be a tragedy.
Our club has had its tragedies and near tragedies. certainly in the later more recent case it brought the whole question to mind. Even since then we often discuss and consider what the club can do to both improve safety and to appear to be doing all possible to mitigate risk in a risky sport.
So the question becomes what can the club do to minimise risk at reasonable cost and inconvience and what can we insist participants do to minimise risk at reasonable cost and inconvenience.
I note that ISAF have signals for yacht racing one particular one being buoyancy vests LJ must be worn. Obviously ISAF accept that race management must make decisions regarding safety.
Clubs need to decide on what rescue boat services they can provide, when an event will be canceled due to strong winds (or lightning) and what monitoring of participants location will be done. ie who is still on the course.
The obvious and best way to handle all this is by writing a Procedures Manual for racing. his will spell out exactly what is required of race management and participants. It will perhaps be the result of a risk analysis exercise. The Rescue Boat crews and Principal Race Officer and assistants should be trained to this standard. All of this will be worth it's weight in gold if there is a tragedy and resultant inquest.
The trick is to document what is reasonable (not a crazy wish list) and how things are normally done. The document and training hopefully will ensure that this minimum standard is always maintained.
The other important thing which will be very valuable (in an inquest) is to ensure that your club's standards are equal to what seems to be the norm amongst other similar clubs. To be up to the standard of others is a great protection against criticism. Our club have serious insurance indemnity against litigation of any person working or under the direction of the club. So you can imagine the insurance company have an interest in all this as well.
So you need procedures regarding participants signing on for a race with details of the crew including emergency contact phone numbers. You need to have a procedure where participants sign off on return or are checked of by race management. The rescue boat crew need to be part of this process in some cases carrying a list of boats whom they are responsible for. Naturally at the end of the race the RB can not be put away until all are safe home and accounted for. You need to have a nominated PRO to take responsibility for safety and he/she needs top have to hand details of all additional help that may be needed. (coast guard ambulance police etc)
Our club put all this in place for both centre board racing and keel boat racing in sheltered waters.
All this is not so difficult and would have I think expedited the rescue of Fire 99. I get the impression that had Fire 99 perished the club would have come in for a lot of criticism and resulting trauma for those involved.
When we had the ISAF World sailing Championships at Fremantle last year a lot of thought and procedures were put in place for safety of participants. Procedures were put in place for any weather eventuality up to unexpected wild storm conditions. medical teams and divers were in the area of 6 courses. Training was given to rescue boat drivers. Interesting that each official boat was given a roll of brightly coloured tape. In the event of a boat crew being taken on board the tape is wrapped around the keel rudder or hull of the boat to indicate that the boat has been abandoned and crew are safe. Never used fortunately. However racing was canceled on one day due to electrical storm. Very conservative I thought. But all this was for sailors who were the very best in the world. Bot bginmers or children.
The fact is that racing is completely different from cruising where a skipper is totally responsible simply because there is no one else to ensure safety except perhaps in a remote way the authorities. Participants can and do expect a level of care by the club and the clubs must respond to this and be seen to do so. Yes safetry decisions must be made on the basis of the least experienced sailor (or most foolish) or they must be excluded. olewill having a rant
Thanks for all the replies.
A few replies to the replies.
- I certainly think it's the individual skippers decision whether to go out. Certainly don't think the club should have to make the call.
- If I were skipper, even in retrospect, I'd still be happy to go out. It was blowy but not a hurricane.
- Regarding safety boats. I don't expect us to have one all the time, but in this instance, we were virtually opposite the club, all the other boats were in and we were the last boats out. The two RIBs, under the circumstances, should have given eye that we were ok.
- Holding on? Not a chance in this instance. First I knew that I'd been hit, was when I was under water swimming for the surface.
- We should carry a handheld VHF. They're peanuts in price and should be to hand. Lets face it. Person hit by boom in Squib, is no different to person hit by boom in small cruiser.
Anyway, I'll repair and will probably stick with the buoyancy aid, but perhaps get bit more used to using one whilst in the water.
Appologies for resurecting an old thread and then drifting it. I have been thinking about the implications of Yacht Clubs and Racing responsibilities.
When Cruising Yacht Club ran a Sydney to Hobart race some years back and several yachts were lost with several crew also lost the resulting inquests brought to light the question of club responsibility. of course they said in SI that it is totally the skipper's responsibility to continue to sail or not the club running the race came in for criticism. This was mainly along the lines of weather forecast reporting and of training of crew and safety standards of boats and equipment. They then raised these standards to protect themselves and now I believe you must have several crew that have done the race and a large portion of the crew who have done safety survival training. Of course PLB harness and LJ are mandatory along with trackiong and reporting equipment. Regardless the race left a lot of club officials traumatised by the tragedy.
Back to fire 99 experience. it does seem to me that it was a near tragedy and that the the club were remiss on several levels. I don't believe in this day and age that clubs can simply wash their hands of responsibilities by making skipper responsible.
Some will complain bitterly that we (you UK) are becoming a Nanny state and personal risk and responsibilities are being smothered. The fact is the western world are becoming more inclined to be a Nanny state. For any country or club to buck this trend is to leave themselves open to criticism in face of tragedies. (I get the impression Australia is ahead of UK in this area. ie becoming the Nanny state)
In our Swan river area there are about 12clubs of various sizes catering to perhaps one or 2 thousand race crew on sat and Sun of summer. History has shown that every few years there is a tragedy in yacht racing. This means that chances are relatively high certainly not remote that there will be a tragedy.
Our club has had its tragedies and near tragedies. certainly in the later more recent case it brought the whole question to mind. Even since then we often discuss and consider what the club can do to both improve safety and to appear to be doing all possible to mitigate risk in a risky sport.
So the question becomes what can the club do to minimise risk at reasonable cost and inconvience and what can we insist participants do to minimise risk at reasonable cost and inconvenience.
I note that ISAF have signals for yacht racing one particular one being buoyancy vests LJ must be worn. Obviously ISAF accept that race management must make decisions regarding safety.
Clubs need to decide on what rescue boat services they can provide, when an event will be canceled due to strong winds (or lightning) and what monitoring of participants location will be done. ie who is still on the course.
The obvious and best way to handle all this is by writing a Procedures Manual for racing. his will spell out exactly what is required of race management and participants. It will perhaps be the result of a risk analysis exercise. The Rescue Boat crews and Principal Race Officer and assistants should be trained to this standard. All of this will be worth it's weight in gold if there is a tragedy and resultant inquest.
The trick is to document what is reasonable (not a crazy wish list) and how things are normally done. The document and training hopefully will ensure that this minimum standard is always maintained.
The other important thing which will be very valuable (in an inquest) is to ensure that your club's standards are equal to what seems to be the norm amongst other similar clubs. To be up to the standard of others is a great protection against criticism. Our club have serious insurance indemnity against litigation of any person working or under the direction of the club. So you can imagine the insurance company have an interest in all this as well.
So you need procedures regarding participants signing on for a race with details of the crew including emergency contact phone numbers. You need to have a procedure where participants sign off on return or are checked of by race management. The rescue boat crew need to be part of this process in some cases carrying a list of boats whom they are responsible for. Naturally at the end of the race the RB can not be put away until all are safe home and accounted for. You need to have a nominated PRO to take responsibility for safety and he/she needs top have to hand details of all additional help that may be needed. (coast guard ambulance police etc)
Our club put all this in place for both centre board racing and keel boat racing in sheltered waters.
All this is not so difficult and would have I think expedited the rescue of Fire 99. I get the impression that had Fire 99 perished the club would have come in for a lot of criticism and resulting trauma for those involved.
When we had the ISAF World sailing Championships at Fremantle last year a lot of thought and procedures were put in place for safety of participants. Procedures were put in place for any weather eventuality up to unexpected wild storm conditions. medical teams and divers were in the area of 6 courses. Training was given to rescue boat drivers. Interesting that each official boat was given a roll of brightly coloured tape. In the event of a boat crew being taken on board the tape is wrapped around the keel rudder or hull of the boat to indicate that the boat has been abandoned and crew are safe. Never used fortunately. However racing was canceled on one day due to electrical storm. Very conservative I thought. But all this was for sailors who were the very best in the world. Bot bginmers or children.
The fact is that racing is completely different from cruising where a skipper is totally responsible simply because there is no one else to ensure safety except perhaps in a remote way the authorities. Participants can and do expect a level of care by the club and the clubs must respond to this and be seen to do so. Yes safetry decisions must be made on the basis of the least experienced sailor (or most foolish) or they must be excluded. olewill having a rant
Seajet
...
Olewill, seems good sense to me, and I'd like to see more training and experience on the rescue boats and cruiser hoist at my club just for a start, but then one wades into politics !
lw395
Well-Known Member
It's the sea.
Unless you are going to shadow every boat with a RIB with a fully trained crew, there will always need to be an element of the skipper taking responsibility.
There is always going to be a slight element of risk in sailing, if you try to eliminate that, there will be nothing left.
In actual fact keelboat racing is a very safe form of sailing, and sailing is a very safe sport. The main use of support craft in keelboat racing is towing them home when the wind dies, and taking photographs.
Unless you are going to shadow every boat with a RIB with a fully trained crew, there will always need to be an element of the skipper taking responsibility.
There is always going to be a slight element of risk in sailing, if you try to eliminate that, there will be nothing left.
In actual fact keelboat racing is a very safe form of sailing, and sailing is a very safe sport. The main use of support craft in keelboat racing is towing them home when the wind dies, and taking photographs.
William_H
Well-Known Member
I agree totally with what you say. It is just that we must also be aware of trends in safety obligations by clubs. It is simply a reality we must face. Not a thing you can argue against. olewill
onesea
Well-Known Member
I really have to strongly disagree, we have to fight fight fight, keep it the individuals responsibility...
Sailing has huge potential to be very dangerous, if this line is followed sailing will become all but for the most wealthy...
As is stated with 2000 people on the water there will be an accident,if as race organiser you are responsible you will ave to take precautions to stop it.
It will start with near misses and drowning, life jackets,
Then it will go on to bumps on heads hard hat's,
Hurt fingers hands, then it will be gloves,
Knee pads, elbow pads,
Cuts and graves overalls
Then distress equipment,
Rescue boats & crews, (do not start me on rescue boat crew training)
Flares,
VHF,
EPIRB,
Personnel EPIRB,
SART,
Safety shoes,
All ropes will have to have certification,
So will deck equipment load testing etc,
Then it will be testing and maintaining it all to the highest standards,
Then it will be recording all this Risk Assessments Safety Procedures for all tasks Signatures audits.
Then it will be qualifications, but by then these will be worth less as they will not need to be about sailing. You will read the procedures manual and be able to do it, it will be more important to have correct paper work to say you have read the manual than to know what you are doing...
Of course the responsible person will have to check all this, as if not he will be held responsible because Mr Smith fell. His life jacket went off but the investigation found that his life jacket had not been serviced for 4 years instead of manufactures recommendation of every year.
It is a slippery slope once you start on it.
If you are the type of person who feel that it is some one else's fault that you had accident doing something you chose to do voluntarily please do not sail on private yachts in events run by private clubs.
If you want to sail with some one to blame Keep to commercial operations that are ready to take your money...
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Fire99
Well-Known Member
Interesting.
Well considering I was the one with 'bump' on the nose and subsequently went swimming, I'm certainly NOT hoping for more legislation / rules for the club. I expect individuals to use common sense.
I was miffed about the safety boats because on this occasion we were very close to the club, the other 'series' boats were on shore and it was clear that since the safety boats effectively had nothing else to do, it would be easy to wizz over and check all was ok. I was manning one of the safety boats a couple of weeks before, and I always checked all boats had returned, before taking my eye off the game.
Other than that, it was just a case that the conditions were probably out of the depth of the skipper (being a novice) and he probably should have decided not to sail in the conditions.
Anyway, hey-ho. If I'm out again, I'll have my eyes open ALL the time for the boom.
Well considering I was the one with 'bump' on the nose and subsequently went swimming, I'm certainly NOT hoping for more legislation / rules for the club. I expect individuals to use common sense.
I was miffed about the safety boats because on this occasion we were very close to the club, the other 'series' boats were on shore and it was clear that since the safety boats effectively had nothing else to do, it would be easy to wizz over and check all was ok. I was manning one of the safety boats a couple of weeks before, and I always checked all boats had returned, before taking my eye off the game.
Other than that, it was just a case that the conditions were probably out of the depth of the skipper (being a novice) and he probably should have decided not to sail in the conditions.
Anyway, hey-ho. If I'm out again, I'll have my eyes open ALL the time for the boom.
lw395
Well-Known Member
It is largely a poor solution to an imagined problem in the case of keelboats.
It is quite different from kids in dinghies who don't know enough to be self reliant and expect support in the likely event of a capsize.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
First if you really think you are going swimming regularly a dry suit would be much safer. An inflatable LJ would probably not be helpful unless manual and then would useless if unconscious. Whist one would hope a safety boat would see you, it is not always easy to see everything from a safety boat, idealy there should also be a shore observer who has a better view. As a shore based race officer I have often seen casualties much faster than the rescue boats. Have you ever been a rescue boat crew?
Fire99
Well-Known Member
Sure Have. As in a couple of my previous posts, I was the 'Man with the Wheel' only a couple of weeks before.
To re-iterate my point. The race had been abandoned, all other class boats were on shore, which left a couple of squibs (including us) struggling to get back to our moorings. In that instance, safety boats should be checking these two boats are ok (since they had no other boats to look after by that point)
The guys that picked me up did apologise for not having their eye on the ball.
Fire99
Well-Known Member
Anyway, back on track..
In a nutshell, are we recommending to stick with the wetsuit and 50N buoyancy aid, and keep my eyes very open for accidental gybes etc?
In a nutshell, are we recommending to stick with the wetsuit and 50N buoyancy aid, and keep my eyes very open for accidental gybes etc?
Jamesuk
Well-Known Member
I am going to make the decision for you
BUY
http://www.marineandoutdoorclothing...hansen-ocean-suit-racing-sailing-drysuit-p571
Actually you would be better off with this instead.
http://www.marineandoutdoorclothing...-and-drysuits-c19/gill-men-s-pro-drysuit-p586
lw395
Well-Known Member
I would personally seek to prevent accidental gybes, rather than sailing along waiting for one to happen.
To crew a keelboat effectively, you need to be concentrating on that spinnaker, and trusting the helm to steer.
The crew should tell the helm to 'come up a bit' if you are getting anywhere near gybing, sailing 5 or 10 degrees high will be faster as well as keeping you safe.
And if you are flying the kite well, it makes steering easier too.
Obviously sometimes you want to sail low for tactical reasons, but try to avoid sailing low just because you are not confident to gybe.
The best thing is to get out as much as possible in sensible breezes and get to know each other as a crew as well as the boat.
Practice a few gybes before or after the race. You may find other boats start copying this!
Also, any gear that isn't working right, it's worth getting it fixed, you don't need the added challenge of poor equipment. Speak to the top sailors at the club before changing anything much though, there can be subtle reasons why some boats have 'different' gear.
If it's too windy for you, try and get ride on the RIB and see if you can watch the top guys in action, without getting in their way of course.
Or get some good bino's and watch from the bar.
To crew a keelboat effectively, you need to be concentrating on that spinnaker, and trusting the helm to steer.
The crew should tell the helm to 'come up a bit' if you are getting anywhere near gybing, sailing 5 or 10 degrees high will be faster as well as keeping you safe.
And if you are flying the kite well, it makes steering easier too.
Obviously sometimes you want to sail low for tactical reasons, but try to avoid sailing low just because you are not confident to gybe.
The best thing is to get out as much as possible in sensible breezes and get to know each other as a crew as well as the boat.
Practice a few gybes before or after the race. You may find other boats start copying this!
Also, any gear that isn't working right, it's worth getting it fixed, you don't need the added challenge of poor equipment. Speak to the top sailors at the club before changing anything much though, there can be subtle reasons why some boats have 'different' gear.
If it's too windy for you, try and get ride on the RIB and see if you can watch the top guys in action, without getting in their way of course.
Or get some good bino's and watch from the bar.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Wow. More than I've paid for any of my boats.
Wetsuit £25
Indeed, but there is no doubt especially in cold water a drysuit is much better than wetsuit. Cold shock is greatly reduced, body cooling and thus loss of energy and mobility is much less and recovery is much faster.
Seajet
...
I know the price of a drysuit ( cheapest I've seen lately is £230 ) is painful, but I've found it worthwhile to say the least, and if sailing over a couple of days putting on a wet wetsuit is like making love to a camel.
The comments about rules & regulations raise a tricky issue, how do novices know they're sailing with an experienced sailor, not an experienced BS merchant ?!
I don't agree with mass tests & qualifications, but some safeguard needs to be in place; same goes for safety boat crew, they're not often as experienced as Olewill and he'd need a serious petrol tank to help out in the UK !
The comments about rules & regulations raise a tricky issue, how do novices know they're sailing with an experienced sailor, not an experienced BS merchant ?!
I don't agree with mass tests & qualifications, but some safeguard needs to be in place; same goes for safety boat crew, they're not often as experienced as Olewill and he'd need a serious petrol tank to help out in the UK !
William_H
Well-Known Member
Again I agree completely with your fears. And yes fight it by all means. I just would not want to be the one who had fought against eg rescue boat in inquest after a tragedy. I am more interested in covering myself and club in the most effective way. The way to do that is to go with the popular opinion and fashion of the time. olewill
onesea
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm that's why I said "keep it the individuals responsibility..." in the first paragraph.
Although unless cultures change its a very dim view for the future of sailing.
Oh and as for clothing for a squib, I used to wear cloths and waterproofs & life jacket/ buoyancy aid, leaving a spare set of clothes in the club.
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Seajet
...
I agree with your sentiment, I've had a crew washed overside from a dinghy; - recovered though it was Spring and he was the only one not wearing a wetsuit, we were young & foolish; my fault for allowing him to come like that, I was 'skipper'... I suggest we all get the best clothing and kit affordable, this includes safety knives to get oneself free if entangled.
And the ugliest, most unfashionable clothes to leave to change into in the club as good stuff may be stolen; this hasn't been a problem for me so far as my tailor will affirm
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Fire99
Well-Known Member
I agree with your sentiment, I've had a crew washed overside from a dinghy; - recovered though it was Spring and he was the only one not wearing a wetsuit, we were young & foolish; my fault for allowing him to come like that, I was 'skipper'... I suggest we all get the best clothing and kit affordable, this includes safety knives to get oneself free if entangled.
And the ugliest, most unfashionable clothes to leave to change into in the club as good stuff may be stolen; this hasn't been a problem for me so far as my tailor will affirm
Well, for a Sunday bit of crewing, my Wetsuit seems fine for the 'not getting bleedin' cold' if I get a soaking.
On inspection, it seems my buoyancy aid is on the big side, which doesn't breed confidence when it wants to ride up above your head.
After last weeks schenanegans I still think I prefer being skipper than crew. Zero dramas as skipper, all kinds of goings on as crew.
