Squib racing - equipment

[Fire99]

Hi all,

I've recently been crewing for a chap in squib racing. Had a bit of an 'off' at the weekend when the race was abandoned and we had an accidental gybe which knocked me off the boat.
In a nutshell, the skipper was unable to get back to me due to the conditions (rolling waves - F6 ish) and I was drifting off to sea and the 'rescue boats' were no-where to be seen.

Anyway, the question is that I had a 50nm buoyancy aid over my wetsuit which didn't seem too great in the conditions, and if the boom had knocked me out, I would of been face down and who knows. All the other squib racers in the club seem to stick with em but was wondering what the rest of the racing world think? Buoyancy aid or full life jackets? (like I use on my Snapdragon)

First year of racing for me so it's all a bit new and interested what the norm is.

 

[lw395]

I'm happy with a buoyancy aid in a dinghy in those conditions.
For keelboat racing a 150N LJ is often required by SI's.
The trouble is a manual one is no help if you are knocked out and an auto one can go off while you are sailing. I've had a Hammar type go off while I've been sat out on the side of a similar sized keelboat. Waves can hit you hard in the Solent!
Once a gas LJ has erupted, you will find it hard to carry on racing, unless you carry a spare.

Personal choice really.

 

[kds]

bouyancy

The problem is with the combination of buoyancy aid/ lifejacket and the buoyancy you get from the wet-suit. This buoyancy is distributed round your body and legs and so will counteract the effect of a Lifejacket which is trying to raise your shoulders/head, to enable you to breathe.
Not easy to correct.
Ken

 

[lw395]

The problem is with the combination of buoyancy aid/ lifejacket and the buoyancy you get from the wet-suit. This buoyancy is distributed round your body and legs and so will counteract the effect of a Lifejacket which is trying to raise your shoulders/head, to enable you to breathe.
Not easy to correct.
Ken

To be honest, I don't think it's much of a problem with a buoyancy aid so long as you are conscious. Modern wetsuits are thinner for the same warmth than older types, and modern BA's have their volume higher up.
I don't think even a decent drysuit would be much of an issue with a 150N LJ.
Being knocked unconscious is never going to be good. If you are knocked on the had by the boom in a big way on a keelboat it could kill you anyway.
I would be thinking about the real problem, why was I out there, Why was I out of control in a boat gybing involuntarily? Why could the helm not get back to me?
No harm done, but looking forwards, the crew needs to avoid the boom, although it is better that it hits you in the arse and chucks you out of the boat than try to duck under it and get concussed. The helm and crew need to be able to work together to handle the boat in a lot of wind. When someone falls out, the other person needs to be able to drop the main if necessary and get back to them.
F6 is a lot. The best preparation for it is lots of sailing in F5.
This sounds more preachy than I mean, it's just that optimal choice of buoyancy is not the main thing IMHO.

 

[prv]

Have to say I'm pretty dubious about someone entering the water unconscious surviving in any sort of sea, whatever they're wearing. Assuming it's an auto lifejacket and it works properly, you still have an open mouth and nose floating a couple of inches above the sea, and it's inconceivable that not a single wave will break or slop into them. Different perhaps if someone passes out later after rigging a spray-hood.

Maybe you just have to take the chance of being knocked out (like you take the chance of being hit by a rogue driver as you walk along the pavement) and go with what works in the far more likely case of going in with your wits about you?

Pete

 

[Fire99]

All good points, thanks.

Firstly, the race really shouldn't have gone ahead. F6 was a distinct possibility and the tide was due to change, causing wind against tide conditions.. (which we got). It was blowing straight down the river so you can imagine what conditions became.

Secondly, an error on my part, in that because things had been pretty heavy against the wind, the minute we turned to run with it, I relaxed for a few seconds for us to take a breather and didn't immediately get my head down in the cockpit to avoid any potential jibe situations.. Sods law a gybe should happen a matter of seconds after that moment.

Thirdly, It's the first time i've been knocked off a boat (in about 15 years) and having not done dinghy sailing, it was all a bit unnerving to be honest.

Forthly, the skipper is a novice and he wasn't confident in what to do in a MOB situation..

Lastly, if the Squibs are going out without any means of 'distress calling', surely safety boats should keep an eye on em.

Well that's my opinion. Worst part of the whole experience was being carried towards the estuary with seemingly no-one keeping an eye out.

 

[lw395]

All good points, thanks.

Firstly, the race really shouldn't have gone ahead. F6 was a distinct possibility and the tide was due to change, causing wind against tide conditions.. (which we got). It was blowing straight down the river so you can imagine what conditions became.

Secondly, an error on my part, in that because things had been pretty heavy against the wind, the minute we turned to run with it, I relaxed for a few seconds for us to take a breather and didn't immediately get my head down in the cockpit to avoid any potential jibe situations.. Sods law a gybe should happen a matter of seconds after that moment.

Thirdly, It's the first time i've been knocked off a boat (in about 15 years) and having not done dinghy sailing, it was all a bit unnerving to be honest.

Forthly, the skipper is a novice and he wasn't confident in what to do in a MOB situation..

Lastly, if the Squibs are going out without any means of 'distress calling', surely safety boats should keep an eye on em.

Well that's my opinion. Worst part of the whole experience was being carried towards the estuary with seemingly no-one keeping an eye out.

Some interesting points.
Keelboats like Squibs race in a sort of no-mans land between dinghies and yachts.
Yachts are expected to be self sufficient. Dinghies expect patrol boats.

Starting a race in F6 would be the top end for dinghies. Yachts are supposed to be able to cope with that and more. Some dinghy classes stipulate an upper limit of 25knots for starting a race. Yacht races like the fastnet are started unless the bloke with the cannon is blown off the wall.
It is always the competitors decision to take part. The fact that races are sometimes called off does not mean you can defer to the race committee for a decision on whether to go or not.
Safety wise, many clubs insist on you carrying a VHF for keelboat races, historically you are on your own or the other boats in the fleet will help you. The overall safety record for keelboat racing is pretty good, over a long history.
Two relative novices who had not sailed that boat together much before will have difficulties a long time before the top crews who win Cowes Week. The crews who are going to Cowes need to practice in strong winds if last year is any guide, so they might be upset if the race was canned due to a few beginners.
It's a grey area and a hard line to draw.
In keelboats, we get plenty of MOB practice in the form of picking up moorings under sail.


Hope it hasn't put you off too much!
Here's hoping for some better breezes!

 

[Fire99]

Some interesting points.
Keelboats like Squibs race in a sort of no-mans land between dinghies and yachts.
Yachts are expected to be self sufficient. Dinghies expect patrol boats.

Starting a race in F6 would be the top end for dinghies. Yachts are supposed to be able to cope with that and more. Some dinghy classes stipulate an upper limit of 25knots for starting a race. Yacht races like the fastnet are started unless the bloke with the cannon is blown off the wall.
It is always the competitors decision to take part. The fact that races are sometimes called off does not mean you can defer to the race committee for a decision on whether to go or not.
Safety wise, many clubs insist on you carrying a VHF for keelboat races, historically you are on your own or the other boats in the fleet will help you. The overall safety record for keelboat racing is pretty good, over a long history.
Two relative novices who had not sailed that boat together much before will have difficulties a long time before the top crews who win Cowes Week. The crews who are going to Cowes need to practice in strong winds if last year is any guide, so they might be upset if the race was canned due to a few beginners.
It's a grey area and a hard line to draw.
In keelboats, we get plenty of MOB practice in the form of picking up moorings under sail.


Hope it hasn't put you off too much!
Here's hoping for some better breezes!

Thanks for that. Hasn't put me off. I love the sea and would sail an upturned walnut shell! I'm quite surprised how being crew on a little squib is quite different from solo 'cruiser' sailing. Not being in control of where the boat is pointing, is one big part.

I think having the handheld VHF available is definitely worthwhile and maybe a little practice, should one of us decide to go for a swim.

I should be back out next weekend, should the swollen nose start to calm down a bit.

 

[BAtoo]

I sail a Squib & wear my yacht LJ not a BA as I have one and not the other.
Our Club lists carrying radios in the SIs.
Squibs in a F6 are "interesting" as they have no reefing points in the mainsail - class rules....
Getting back into even a low boat like a Squib is difficult any way - having tried it after pushing us off the putty.....

 

[Fire99]

Getting back into even a low boat like a Squib is difficult any way - having tried it after pushing us off the putty.....

One of the guys has a rope boarding ladder now, since his crewman had the very same issue when 'misjudging' the depth a touch

F6 was exciting, especially when going to windward. Much bailing required..

 

[Seajet]

I sail a Squib & wear my yacht LJ not a BA as I have one and not the other.
Our Club lists carrying radios in the SIs.
Squibs in a F6 are "interesting" as they have no reefing points in the mainsail - class rules....
Getting back into even a low boat like a Squib is difficult any way - having tried it after pushing us off the putty.....

I can't help thinking a lifejacket ( with a sprayhood 'spume visor' & Hamma trigger to hopefully avoid the thing inflating when sailing with waves coming over ) rather than BA may be the idea, as unlike dinghies one doesn't expect a Squib to capsize...

Lifejackets can be a hindrance getting back aboard, it seems some people don't know that the end of the oral inflation tube on lifejackets lets air out if necessary, that's a general comment as something that's struck me recently.

 

[onesea]

OK my 2 pence worth sorry if its a bit harsh

Firstly: its not in my mind weather the race should of gone ahead but if the skipper should of raced in it?

Secondly: it happens to us all you lived to tell the tale learned a lesson its the pleasures of sailing...

Thirdly: Rule No 1 if getting knocked out of boat or falling out or that matter even pushed out is DO NOT LET GO Easier said than done but you can always spot a dinghy sailor they know how to hold on to there boat


Forthly: Get some MOB and boat handling practice in with the skipper, a skipper should know how to do MOB in a squib he should be able to do it all on his own...

Lastly: PLEASE PLEASE do not try and make sailing any more expensive than it is... When I sailed squibs and similar there was normally a launch or something around. Although it was expected such boats would look after themselves and each other as required...

Think of all the volunteers (who often are not that well trained) and equipment you would need to maintain 6 to 1 ratio that dinghy's need...

PS: At least its your nose! My sister had to explain what all the bruises on her legs to the PE Teacher "No Miss you do not need to call any one I WAS SAILING".

 

[William_H]

Life jackets

I imagine the squib is like a Flying 15 ie ballasted keel open hull. I think that the buoyancy vest is the best bet for any sailing. Always works without being inflated while is of a suitable shape to allow swimming in it and climbing back on the boat. Our club run dinghy racing and buoyancy vests are mandatory. Wet suits are normally worn as well. Capsizes are a regular ocurance. Yes rescue boats are also always on hand. Our club run 5 RB one for each fleet. (about 1 RB for 6 boats) We do provide training for RB drivers and always 2 in an RB.
For our keel boat racing we also run a rescue boat. Of course this is more of a token gesture because the fleet is more spread out. But then they also usually carry radio. But certainly a search will be launched if any boat is not up with the rest.
I prefer and supply buoyancy vests for myself and crew on my little keel boat (TS) especially when racing in a bit of wind. They provide some warmth as well as protection from bumps.

As for being hit on the head by the boom this is a real worry. I have converted by own boom to carbon fibre light weight with no hard protrusions. We did have a person die some years back on Swan River form being hit by boom. I have had 2 near disasters when teaching gybing one hit in the head and one knocked overboard both on J24s.

Crew needs to stay low and forward while helmsman needs to be wary of accidental gybe.
Yes helmsman needs to be able to pick up MOB in any conditions. Have a throwing rope handy if you can't get right back to MOB. Practice is the key.

A bit of wisdom as to when to stay home is always valuable. Don't be led by those who are foolish enough to go out.

Finally a HH radio and or flares would be well worth carrying. As a crew you might provide these for yourself either on your person or stowed in the boat in a dry place. good luck olewill

 

[PeterWright]

Some years ago now, but I've done my share of squibbing, both on tidal estuaries and at sea. I don't believe that racing should not have gone ahead.

Experienced squibbers relish a F6 to blow the cobwebs away, just as they do the frustrations and subtleties of F2. It's all part of the skill you build up. Whether your skipper (a novice you say) was wise to race in those conditions is another question. I'm sure the S.I's made it clear that the decision to race and responsibility for it lies firmly with each skipper.

It would be absolutely wrong for race officers to make the decision to race or not based on the weakest crew in the fleet. Our sport is one of the few rapidly disappeaing areas of life where we actually have to take responsibility for ourselves and not expect others to protect us from our own mistakes - that is one of its key attractions for many. Apart from that, such a course would rob more experienced crews of an exciting day's sailing.

 

[Searush]

It's all very well saying "Skipper shouldn't have sailed" but a novice will not understand that until it has been experienced. There is nothing will match the confidence of an ignorant man . . .

He will know better NOW, after the event & be more cautious next time but lack of experience makes us all bold. Oh, and MoB practise has to be top priority next time you get a chance to go out!

 

[BAtoo]

Some years ago now, but I've done my share of squibbing, both on tidal estuaries and at sea. I don't believe that racing should not have gone ahead.

Experienced squibbers relish a F6 to blow the cobwebs away, just as they do the frustrations and subtleties of F2. It's all part of the skill you build up. Whether your skipper (a novice you say) was wise to race in those conditions is another question. I'm sure the S.I's made it clear that the decision to race and responsibility for it lies firmly with each skipper.

It would be absolutely wrong for race officers to make the decision to race or not based on the weakest crew in the fleet. Our sport is one of the few rapidly disappeaing areas of life where we actually have to take responsibility for ourselves and not expect others to protect us from our own mistakes - that is one of its key attractions for many. Apart from that, such a course would rob more experienced crews of an exciting day's sailing.

Well said!


""a skipper should know how to do MOB in a squib he should be able to do it all on his own...""

In a Squib he WILL have to do it by himself as it's a 2-man boat..

and so will the crew if the helm falls off

 

[Fire99]

Thanks for all the replies.

A few replies to the replies.

- I certainly think it's the individual skippers decision whether to go out. Certainly don't think the club should have to make the call.

- If I were skipper, even in retrospect, I'd still be happy to go out. It was blowy but not a hurricane.

- Regarding safety boats. I don't expect us to have one all the time, but in this instance, we were virtually opposite the club, all the other boats were in and we were the last boats out. The two RIBs, under the circumstances, should have given eye that we were ok.

- Holding on? Not a chance in this instance. First I knew that I'd been hit, was when I was under water swimming for the surface.

- We should carry a handheld VHF. They're peanuts in price and should be to hand. Lets face it. Person hit by boom in Squib, is no different to person hit by boom in small cruiser.

Anyway, I'll repair and will probably stick with the buoyancy aid, but perhaps get bit more used to using one whilst in the water.

 

[BAtoo]

It was blowy but not a hurricane.

..or even a Gale....

Well maybe a "Small-Boat gale"

 

[[70521]]

In a nutshell, the skipper was unable to get back to me due to the conditions (rolling waves - F6 ish) and I was drifting off to sea and the 'rescue boats' were no-where to be seen.

I'd get a new skipper!

 

[Bobc]

As was once said to me by a certain well-known sailmaker..

"There's nothing wrong with a Squib that a walking frame can't cure".