Spirit cooker

[chriss999]

It would be interesting to see pictures of the stove on the OP’s boat to see what type it is.

 

[Alfie168]

Thankyou. I have decided to have it removed and replace with a safer device. Lesley

If it's an Origo, I would defy you to find a safer cooking device. I'm a registered gas installer by the way.

 

[Alfie168]

Gas is perfectly safe if it's properly installed and maintained.

That's a truism that applies to anything, and is meaningless in a practical sense as we all know installation and maintainance standards are variable and that the unexpected can happen. There are particular risks with gas you cannot set aside. They are just plain " there".

 

[Alfie168]

A few weeks ago a person commented on this forum that he is a gas fitter by trade but worries about gas on board a boat!

That's a worry! ?

Then he is just being honest as he knows what can go wrong.

 

[Alfie168]

I reckon the invisible flame is a risk. I'd never have a spirit stove in anything, on or off the water.

That's fine then as it's not invisible, otherwise I'd be be turning mine off all the time instead of turning it down. If you can't see an Origo flame..should you be in charge of a boat at sea.....logically speaking

 

[pvb]

Examples?

You surely cannot deny the dangers of LPG? I can think of more fatal incidents in the last forty odd years involving LPG on boats than i can count on my fingers and toes

LPG, by its very nature, is inherently dangerous on boats. That's not to say that it shouldn't be used and indeed all our canal boats and the current yacht had/have LPG installations

However it has to be treated with considerable respect. For starters, i would never, ever, contemplate a gas installation that did not include a proper gas locker with an overboard drain (which is the key reason why the previous two yachts did not have gas. On the first it was outright impossible, on the second it would have been doable but take up too much of the limited locker space)

Properly installed and maintained, LPG is perfectly safe on a boat. The fatal incidents you've noted were almost certainly the result of ignorance or imcompetence.

 

[pvb]

That's a truism that applies to anything, and is meaningless in a practical sense as we all know installation and maintainance standards are variable and that the unexpected can happen. There are particular risks with gas you cannot set aside. They are just plain " there".

No, the risks are manageable, just as they are with inflammable liquid stoves. But, on balance, LPG is safer, which is why it's the choice of the majority of boatbuilders.

 

[Bru]

I'm afraid that's not in any way a realistic scenario. Gas on boats is perfectly safe unless people do something very stupid (along the lines of what you suggested).

So why don't I like spirit stoves? Invisible flame, poor heat output, the need to pour inflammable liquid into it, safety record - especially in the USA where they used to be popular but caused lots of fires. Here in the UK, the Boat Safety Scheme has published specific guidance on Origo stoves, recommending that spare fuel is stored in a drained fuel locker, that the stove is only used when moored, and that the burners should be taken off the boat to be refilled. Now if that doesn't suggest "danger", I'm not sure what does.

I missed this en passant so apologies for the rewind

Gas on boats has killed people who've done nothing stupid at all, merely been the victims of misfortune

My scenario is perfectly realistic and as far as gas is concerned has happened many many times, all too often with fatal consequences

It does not require stupidity, it only requires an undetected equipment failure, or sequence of failures. Be it a hose failing, a valve sticking open, a flame failure cutout failing to operate, etc (all of which ive personally encountered at least once) then dial in a bit of bad luck and boom

As has been pointed out, the flame on an Origo is not actually invisible

You do not "pour inflammable liquid" into the stove (the instructions are very explicit on this) - you refill the burner out of the stove either on deck or ashore (the BSS advice is correct on that point)

Of course it makes sense to store spare fuel somewhere where a leak cannot accumulate in the boat. No different to gas or petrol in that respect (however see below about the consequences of a spirit fuel leak)

The BSS advice about only using the stove when moored is complete and utter nonsense, pure and simple. What idiot came up with that the gods alone know!* There is absolutely no reason or logic whatsoever behind that advice

I can't comment from knowledge on the US situation. I have no idea what type of stove or stoves they were commonly using nor why they should have apparently led to a notable number of fires. I suspect there's more to that story but I'm not inclined to go looking

And regardless, you are still ignoring the crucial difference between alcohol spirit and gas ... the consequences if something does go awry.

Yet again i will point out that a gas leak into a boat is potentially catastrophic with a very high risk of explosion and fireball with an instant threat to life whereas the consequences of a leak of alcohol spirit are almost certainly minor with no risk of explosion and a low risk of life threatening fire

* I have previously mentioned hereabouts that i was directly involved in the setting up of the Boat Safety Scheme from the users side. You wouldn't believe the stuff we got removed from the original proposals! Seems they're still capable of stupidity even now)

 

[Bru]

Properly installed and maintained, LPG is perfectly safe on a boat. The fatal incidents you've noted were almost certainly the result of ignorance or imcompetence.

Properly installed and maintained, alcohol spirit stoves are perfectly safe on a boat. The fatal incidents you haven't noted speak for themselves

 

[johnalison]

The memory of cooking with meths, which we did for 14 years brings tears to my eyes.

 

[Praxinoscope]

The memory of cooking with meths, which we did for 14 years brings tears to my eyes.

Bio Ethanol Which burns slightly hotter, has alleviated the pong from meths.

 

[pvb]

Properly installed and maintained, alcohol spirit stoves are perfectly safe on a boat. The fatal incidents you haven't noted speak for themselves

I mentioned earlier the BSS guidelines, which clearly indicated some dangerous elements of spirit stoves. As you seem to be in denial, take a look at the BSS advice - https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/294367/TN0110Q5-Origo-Stoves.pdf

 

[Praxinoscope]

I mentioned earlier the BSS guidelines, which clearly indicated some dangerous elements of spirit stoves. As you seem to be in denial, take a look at the BSS advice - https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/294367/TN0110Q5-Origo-Stoves.pdf

Just read the BSS advice, and it doesn't appear to be very onerous as far as safety is concerned, only suggesting that if free standing or portable that they are only used when moored and that the meths containerskept in a separate locker.
As most on board stoves will be on gimbals they are not free standing or portable therefore not subject to this advice.
The balance of the document does not appear to suggest the Origo stove presents any real danger in normal use or situation, other than the requirement for adequate ventilation during use, which is also a requirement for gas stoves as well.

 

[Bru]

I mentioned earlier the BSS guidelines, which clearly indicated some dangerous elements of spirit stoves. As you seem to be in denial, take a look at the BSS advice - https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/294367/TN0110Q5-Origo-Stoves.pdf

I have already read the BSS advice flyer

I've addressed the BSS advice above

It's two thirds a statement of the blindingly bloody obvious and one third complete and utter tosh

Moreover it is ADVICE

Now why don't you go and wade through the PAGES of REQUIREMENTS, not advice, relating to gas on boats in the BSS? (Some of which is also badly conceived by the way! But not as bad as the original draft which would have made a compliant gas installation on a boat virtually impossible)

It is not me that is in denial. It is you who will not see sense on this

Instead of regurgitating the same spurious arguments over and over, answer me one simple question ... can you cite one single instance of an explosion on a boat caused by bioethanol or methylated spirits?

 

[pvb]

Instead of regurgitating the same spurious arguments over and over, answer me one simple question ... can you cite one single instance of an explosion on a boat caused by bioethanol or methylated spirits?

Of course not, but loads of fires. Which do you prefer, fires or explosions?

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Refilling by pouring a flammable liquid inside a boat underway is for the birds. Not on my boat, never.

 

[chriss999]

I’ve used meths burners for about 30 years on land and on my boat. My experience is that they are entirely safe in use and the fuel is low-risk. Their faults are they they are rather slow to boil water, the fuel is low in calorific value so rather bulky, and meths can be a bit smelly, but isn’t too bad.
In 30 years of use I’ve only had one incident. I refilled carelessly and probably left some liquid meths in the base of the origo cooker. Some time later in use I heard a bang. Presumably the spilled fuel vaporised and ignited. But nothing was damaged, no fire as the fuel is safely contained, just a bang. As far as I can see that is the worst that can happen. If that had been gas, I’d have been toast.

 

[pvb]

I’ve used meths burners for about 30 years on land and on my boat. My experience is that they are entirely safe in use and the fuel is low-risk. Their faults are they they are rather slow to boil water, the fuel is low in calorific value so rather bulky, and meths can be a bit smelly, but isn’t too bad.
In 30 years of use I’ve only had one incident. I refilled carelessly and probably left some liquid meths in the base of the origo cooker. Some time later in use I heard a bang. Presumably the spilled fuel vaporised and ignited. But nothing was damaged, no fire as the fuel is safely contained, just a bang. As far as I can see that is the worst that can happen. If that had been gas, I’d have been toast.

I've used LPG on boats for over 45 years, never a problem.

 

[Alfie168]

Refilling by pouring a flammable liquid inside a boat underway is for the birds. Not on my boat, never.

Why would you be doing it underway, anymore than you would be having a whisky at the helm.....or Changing gas bottles ?. Whisky being another flammable liquid you probably have on board. You do all that sort of thing before you get under way....or after you have anchored/ moored. It's not explosive like a gas air/mixture can easily be, and it's pretty safe anyway as long as you do not have anything lit nearby. Any excess evaporates quite quickly in practice.

I know you are trying to big it up, but in reality there are no circumstances whatsoever where an evaporative spirit stove is intrinsically more dangerous than a pressurised fuel stove. All fuels carry a risk of course so there is no such thing as a 100 per cent safe fuel.....but from a professional point of view an uncontrolled escape of pressurised gas is the really scary scenario as it can be ignited by the innocent flick of a switch. You won't get that with an Origo, no matter how determined you are with your switches.

 

[prv]

It does not require stupidity, it only requires an undetected equipment failure, or sequence of failures. Be it a hose failing, a valve sticking open, a flame failure cutout failing to operate, etc (all of which ive personally encountered at least once) then dial in a bit of bad luck and boom

In my case it was some very rough conditions throwing the gas bottle out of its retaining ring, leaving it lying on its side in the locker. When we finally got into port and tied up, and went to light the stove, the liquid butane that had found its way into the pipe came sputtering and spraying out of the cooker in an alarming fashion, filling the cabin with gas.

It took quite a while of hand-pumping and letting the wind blow through the boat before our noses and the gas alarm agreed it was safe to start cooking dinner.

Pete