Spirit cooker

[Bru]

Thankyou. I have decided to have it removed and replace with a safer device. Lesley

That'll be a neat trick!

What IS it?

If it's an Origo or a Cookmate there isn't a safer method of cooking on a boat known to man!

The only reason we're now on gas on "bigger boat" is to retain the oven. Both previous boats had Origo / Cookmate stoves (the first replacing an extremely dodgy gas hob and system)

Don't take too much notice of the detractors and I'd dismiss that BoatUS article out of hand (at best it's extremely dated and / or referring to types of alcohol stove no longer in regular use, at worst it's plain nonsense)

Origo stoves do NOT flare up unless you severely over fill the burner(s). The spirit is held in an absorbent mesh in the burner base unlike the classic Trangier type burner (which can flare, exciting but not particularly dangerous)

An alcohol (be it meths or bioethanol) fire, in the event of a spillage, is easily extinguished. And because it is the vapour that burns, not the liquid, does no immediate harm to surfaces or even skin (anybody of my age will surely have set fire to meths on the back of their hand in school chemistry lessons!)

And because the burners are (or should be) removed from the stove for filling, they can be filled in the cockpit for added safety

And the final clincher ... bioethanol is readily available online in handy 1l squeezy bottles and the Origo burners hold 1.2l so when a burner gets low it's simple to squeeze a litre from the bottle to the burner with no mess (after, of course, you've let it cool down a bit!)

But back to the key point ... without knowing what stove you've got the advice is generic not specific

One final thought ... for the love of all that you hold dear, do NOT replace the stove with a gas cartridge type camping stove. Good ones are OK (for camping anyway) but the safety record of the typical cheapish ones is less than stellar and there are some truly diabolically dangerous examples still finding their way onto the market

 

[pvb]

Don't take too much notice of the detractors and I'd dismiss that BoatUS article out of hand (at best it's extremely dated and / or referring to types of alcohol stove no longer in regular use, at worst it's plain nonsense)

If you believe that alcohol stoves are so safe, why do you think virtually every production boat built in recent years has had a gas installation?

 

[Bru]

If you believe that alcohol stoves are so safe, why do you think virtually every production boat built in recent years has had a gas installation?

Same reason every caravan and motor home has gas. It's ubiquitous, convenient and effective. The fuel (bottles) is readily available

Spirit stoves are slower to cook with (and especially to boil a kettle on), require more regular attention (e.g refuelling) and don't offer the option of an oven or a grill. The fuel has to be stocked up well in advance (unless you're in France or don't mind paying through the nose for DIY store meths)

And in a proper installation with a proper gas locker, properly installed pipework and a serviceable modern cooker, there's nothing exceptionally unsafe about gas either

However, on the rare occasions things do go wrong, gas kills people. I have never, ever, heard of a spirit stove killing anybody. Ever. (A consequent fire, allowed to get out of hand, might end in a fatality but it would be going some to get anywhere near that stage)

There's good arguments for and against spirit stoves but safety is most definitely not one of the "against" arguments!

 

[pvb]

There's good arguments for and against spirit stoves but safety is most definitely not one of the "against" arguments!

I reckon the invisible flame is a risk. I'd never have a spirit stove in anything, on or off the water.

 

[Poignard]

If you believe that alcohol stoves are so safe, why do you think virtually every production boat built in recent years has had a gas installation?

,
Obviously because a gas cooker is most like what people have at home.

 

[prv]

If you believe that alcohol stoves are so safe, why do you think virtually every production boat built in recent years has had a gas installation?

Because it’s better.

Alcohol is safer, gas is better. Most of us find the slight additional risk to be minimal, and more than worth the improved power, convenience, and controllability for cooking. But a few people lean the other way.

I’m told that alcohol stoves are much more common in American production boats, precisely because the builders are more risk-averse given the US legal system.

Pete

 

[pvb]

Obviously because a gas cooker is most like what people have at home.

Three-quarters of domestic cookers in the EU are electric.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Three-quarters of domestic cookers in the EU are electric.

A lot would probably be gas if natural gas were available, but many are like us with no access to a natural gas supply, we have to choose an alternative, I much prefer a gas hob to any of the electric options, (although I have yet to try an induction hob)
so we use LPG for the hob and electric for the oven
On the boat then have used Origo stoves for the last 40 years and certainly wouldn't go back to a gas hob in the boat.

 

[prv]

Three-quarters of domestic cookers in the EU are electric.

Even so, a decent gas cooker where you turn the knob and press a button, is more similar to domestic electric than are the more primitive methods involving pouring liquids, moving rubber flaps, poking matches into narrow spaces, preheating brass tubing, pumping up air pressure, and so on.

Pete

 

[Bru]

I reckon the invisible flame is a risk. I'd never have a spirit stove in anything, on or off the water.

It's not totally invisible but near enough. Quite why you're so averse to spirit stoves if that's the only risk you can come up with beats me!

I'm up for a challenge ...

I'll pour 5 litres of bioethanol into my bilges, you release 3.9kg of propane into yours. Close up both boats and repair to the pub. First round is on me. You can buy the beers for the rest of the evening cos where you're going when we return to our respective boats and light the stove for our bedtime cocoa you won't be needing money!

I promise not to gloat at your funeral

(For the terminally hard of understanding, pvb will have the very brief and unedifying experience of being blown up and burnt to a crisp.

I might possibly notice an odd smell. If i actually put a naked flame to the spirit floating in the bilges I'll get a spirit fire

My one problem would be, if i was actually stupid enough to light the stuff, putting it out. C02 would blow it everywhere, which could i grant be a bit dicey. Dry powder is hopeless. Period. The beast for the job is foam of course which is why both previous boats had foam fire extinguishers. A blanket, quilt etc would also be effective

Even in an absolute worse case scenario, I'd have ample time to beat a hasty and lightly singed retreat which, i venture to suggest, is somewhat preferable to being instantly roasted!)

 

[Bru]

Even so, a decent gas cooker where you turn the knob and press a button, is more similar to domestic electric than are the more primitive methods involving pouring liquids, moving rubber flaps, poking matches into narrow spaces, preheating brass tubing, pumping up air pressure, and so on.

Pete

For the avoidance of confusion, let's be clear that the Origo type spirit stoves do not involve preheating or pressurising

That's the preserve of paraffin stoves e.g Taylors etc

I rather suspect that a lot of the uninformed denigration of spirit stoves is based on second hand knowledge of paraffin stoves - flare ups for example ... a common issue with pressurised paraffin cookers, and lamps. Never, ever, happens with a spirit stove (you can get a sort of flare up with the Trangier type where the fuel is sloshing around in the tank if it spills out but it's a pale shadow of the sort of flare up a recalcitrant Tilley lamp can manage!)

 

[pvb]

It's not totally invisible but near enough. Quite why you're so averse to spirit stoves if that's the only risk you can come up with beats me!

I'm up for a challenge ...

I'll pour 5 litres of bioethanol into my bilges, you release 3.9kg of propane into yours. Close up both boats and repair to the pub. First round is on me. You can buy the beers for the rest of the evening cos where you're going when we return to our respective boats and light the stove for our bedtime cocoa you won't be needing money!

I promise not to gloat at your funeral

(For the terminally hard of understanding, pvb will have the very brief and unedifying experience of being blown up and burnt to a crisp.

I might possibly notice an odd smell. If i actually put a naked flame to the spirit floating in the bilges I'll get a spirit fire

My one problem would be, if i was actually stupid enough to light the stuff, putting it out. C02 would blow it everywhere, which could i grant be a bit dicey. Dry powder is hopeless. Period. The beast for the job is foam of course which is why both previous boats had foam fire extinguishers. A blanket, quilt etc would also be effective

Even in an absolute worse case scenario, I'd have ample time to beat a hasty and lightly singed retreat which, i venture to suggest, is somewhat preferable to being instantly roasted!)

I'm afraid that's not in any way a realistic scenario. Gas on boats is perfectly safe unless people do something very stupid (along the lines of what you suggested).

So why don't I like spirit stoves? Invisible flame, poor heat output, the need to pour inflammable liquid into it, safety record - especially in the USA where they used to be popular but caused lots of fires. Here in the UK, the Boat Safety Scheme has published specific guidance on Origo stoves, recommending that spare fuel is stored in a drained fuel locker, that the stove is only used when moored, and that the burners should be taken off the boat to be refilled. Now if that doesn't suggest "danger", I'm not sure what does.

 

[prv]

For the avoidance of confusion, let's be clear that the Origo type spirit stoves do not involve preheating or pressurising

Indeed. I was trying to cover all non-gas options. I should perhaps have also included the disadvantages of coal dust, chimney draw issues, and overheating the cabin with an aga-style constant-running diesel stove as used in some high-lattitudes boats.

Origo stoves are a little more faff to fill, light, and extinguish than my gas cooker (I have electric ignition, so don't even need a match) but I think the main disadvantage is the gentle flame that takes longer to boil a kettle. And the fact that you can't make cheese on toast with one. I'm aware that there has been an Origo oven, though they seem to be rare, but I'm not sure how effective it would be for baking cakes (as three of my friends are keen on doing on board).

Eminently safe, though.

Pete

 

[Bru]

The Origo oven is a mythical beast

Rumoured to be available, at a truly stupid price for a metal box, but unheard of outside of the fantasy pages of the occasional marine catalogue!

You can make cheese on toast on an Origo, or something close enough, by getting creative! Jane managed it

We had a very useful mesh toaster which made quite decent toast (with bioethanol, it tasted pants with meths) and she then put the toast with cheese on top in our double skillet to melt the cheese. It worked rather well!

I will concede it was something of a faff to do though

 

[Praxinoscope]

Let's just face it Origo stoves are the marine catering equivalent of Marmite, you either think they are the 'bees knees' or the biggest load of crap offered to an unsuspecting consumer.
I happen to like Marmite and my Origo stove.

 

[Poignard]

“There are so many pleasant things about the sea life that one can put up with some discomforts."

Captain Josselyn “Down Easter Captain”

 

[Bru]

Let's just face it Origo stoves are the marine catering equivalent of Marmite, you either think they are the 'bees knees' or the biggest load of crap offered to an unsuspecting consumer.
I happen to like Marmite and my Origo stove.

There's a difference though

Disliking marmite because you don't like the taste is fair enough, the nonsense oft repeated about spirit stoves however is the equivalent of telling people not to eat marmite because it will kill you

 

[pvb]

There's a difference though

Disliking marmite because you don't like the taste is fair enough, the nonsense oft repeated about spirit stoves however is the equivalent of telling people not to eat marmite because it will kill you

I reckon there's much more nonsense spouted about LPG being dangerous on boats!

 

[DoubleEnder]

I have seen an Origo oven. It works.

Overall gas is faster and people seem to like it better. I might have gas if I had room for a good installation, but on my boat space is very limited. A 2 burner origo is fine. A little slower than gas I think, but I am not exactly running a cafe so can wait the extra 30 seconds for the kettle

 

[Bru]

I reckon there's much more nonsense spouted about LPG being dangerous on boats!

Examples?

You surely cannot deny the dangers of LPG? I can think of more fatal incidents in the last forty odd years involving LPG on boats than i can count on my fingers and toes

LPG, by its very nature, is inherently dangerous on boats. That's not to say that it shouldn't be used and indeed all our canal boats and the current yacht had/have LPG installations

However it has to be treated with considerable respect. For starters, i would never, ever, contemplate a gas installation that did not include a proper gas locker with an overboard drain (which is the key reason why the previous two yachts did not have gas. On the first it was outright impossible, on the second it would have been doable but take up too much of the limited locker space)