SPINNAKER- NEED ADVICE ON HOW BEST TO FLY IT

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I was trying to fly my spinnaker at weekend in squally conditions and had difficulty.

I have read the books and got the pictures and I think I have all the bits of string and the pole in the right place.

However, with two big guys up front who were still getting things sorted, and doing 6 knots, she began to nose dive and roll badly which threatened the spinnaker as it filled and folded.
What might we be doing wrong? keeep it simple guys as I'm new to this as I usually cruise with a poled out genoa and preventer on the main,
ta
Scotty

 

[Judders]

Are you getting the hallyard all the way up? And quickly? A kite can make a boat rather unstable if the head is not hard to the mast.

Because the thing has started to fill at this point the last meter or so can be pretty tough to get up but it is essential to do so.

 

[flaming]

Hard to say without being there, but in general if the boat is rolling, and you're not happy about it, bring the pole forward and down, and oversheet the sheet, flattening the sail. You may also want to head up slightly, to about 160-165 TWA.

This is because the rolling is often caused by the flow of air across the spinnaker oscillating, being first left to right, then right to left, etc. This is caused by being too downwind with a spinnaker that is free to flop from side to side. Also make sure that the halyard is fully hoisted so the head of the sail is held steadier. (Another good argument against the evil snuffer, as the head is held 18 inches or so from the mast)

To cure the nose diving, get the weight back! Either crew weight or have a look at where you are storing heavy things and move some of it backwards.

 

[Racecruiser]

As judders has said hoisting to the top quickly is a must.

Two big blokes on the foredeck will upset any boat below about 40 ft - they shouldn't need to be there if the pole is at the right height before the hoist and having halyard, pole up/down lines back to the cockpit helps. Launching from midships means no bodyweight up front at any time.

When up and drawing if it's breezy avoid a dead run - say 15/20 degrees of a run unless you want to be very alert. Faster too of course.

The rolls usually happen when the sail becomes unstable - if you are 15 degrees away from a run, the pole is not bought too far back and the sheet is slightly over-trimmed it should stay stable. Filled then folding sounds like an undertrimmed sheet poss with pole too far back.

Ultimate trim is keeping the leading edge (pole side) on the curl but don't do that when windy or the rollies start. If a gust comes through sheet in, pole forward a bit and steer so that you're not on a run. A spare crew looking astern to anticipate gusts helps.

While I have nothing but admiration for Twisters, in lots of wind you may want to keep the kite down as exceeding hull speed will probably not happen, the loads will be heavy and control will be difficult.

 

[jamesjermain]

You've probably not done much wrong other that choose to practice in strong, gusty conditioons.

Try again in lighter, steadier winds and you'll learn much more. The trouble with gusty conditions is that, while you may be making the right trimming decisions for one moment, conditions change so quickly they might appear to be making matters worse.

You can make your spinnaker more stable by slightly over-sheeting and over-guying. But that restricts your ability to dump wind if you get over-pressed. You need to be able to react quickly to an incipient broach by easing the sheet, then trimming back in equally quickly when the boat is back on her feet.

All in all, better to get your practice in in light, stable conditions

 

[bbg]

Agree with the others. Don't try to sail dead down wind. A useful guide is the windex (if you have one). You probably look at it upwind to see when you are at or near close hauled. Use it downwind and try to keep the arrow pointing at or just inside the close-hauled indicators.

 

[flaming]

[ QUOTE ]


All in all, better to get your practice in in light, stable conditions

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with that, but the trimming requirements of a kite in strong winds are very different from light winds. And only ever using it in light winds, then throwing it up in stronger stuff without considering what needs to be done differently, is an easy way to scare yourself.

 

[lw395]

Pole up a bit and forward (45 degrees ish?) will help stability.
Try to sheet hard as the boat rolls to windward, this can damp the rolling. Raising the pole will lift the bow a bit more.
Also make sure the main has enough kicker on to stop the top driving the masthead to windward.
As the others have said, head up avoid the dead run!
Do not ignore the most important spi control: the helm! try to steer to keep a more constant pressure in the kite, bear off in the gusts, head up a little more in the lulls.

Hope that helps?

 

[flaming]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the pole will lift the bow a bit more.


[/ QUOTE ]

True, but normally outdone by the need to strap the thing down and stop it swinging from side to side.

A good example of why books on sailtrim are as useful to vertically challenged people as telephone books!

[ QUOTE ]

Do not ignore the most important spi control: the helm! try to steer to keep a more constant pressure in the kite, bear off in the gusts, head up a little more in the lulls.



[/ QUOTE ]

A very good point, a breezy run with a well powered up kite, especially in a non planing hull, really will sort the men from the boys!

 

[ebbtide]

Re: SPINNAKER- NEED ADVICE

[ QUOTE ]
However, with two big guys up front who were still getting things sorted, and doing 6 knots, she began to nose dive and roll badly

[/ QUOTE ]

As has been said already; get the darn thing fully up pdq. It's not wimpish to set it in stops (a chance to recycle all those rubber bands that postie throws down) so that a tug on the sheet lets draw.

What are those guys still doing up forard? Assuming the kite was stowed properly so went up cleanly there isn't anything to do apart from bring the bag back. Must get weight aft a.s.a.p.

Have you considered rethinking all your running rigging so that it all leads back to the cockpit? Well worth a rebuild if not.

 

[andymcp]

Re: SPINNAKER- NEED ADVICE

When raising a spinnaker, is it best to raise it behind the genoa, or stow the genoa first, then raise? Or is this one of those personal preference things? I have tended to go the stow-genoa-first route just to keep things simple, especially while we learn how to use the spin at all, but I have seen it mentioned that raising the spin behind the genoa is easier?

 

[flaming]

Re: SPINNAKER- NEED ADVICE

[ QUOTE ]
When raising a spinnaker, is it best to raise it behind the genoa, or stow the genoa first, then raise? Or is this one of those personal preference things? I have tended to go the stow-genoa-first route just to keep things simple, especially while we learn how to use the spin at all, but I have seen it mentioned that raising the spin behind the genoa is easier?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hoisting behind the genoa gives you a nice big wind shadow to get the thing hoisted before it fills. It also prevents the spinnaker from wrapping itself around the forestay before you can trim it.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Re: SPINNAKER- NEED ADVICE

1. set in 'props'??

2. Stowed properly??

3. two people in small cockpit with tiller and running rigging with not enough winches and cleats probably doesn't help, especially when we didn't really know what we were doing.

Advice so far, very helpful everybody..... many thanks.
Several; things stand out.
a. we were running straight downwind.
b. we had two blokes on the foredeck.
c. we didn't get it up quick enpough!?
d. and the helm was not quick enough to counter the rolling
e. we wern't paying attention enough behind us to check on squalls

 

[andymcp]

Re: SPINNAKER- NEED ADVICE

Thanks for that. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Something new to try next time.....

 

[Judders]

Re: SPINNAKER- NEED ADVICE

I'll second the objection to running all lines aft. Mine are and with a small cockpit it can make things a bit too crampt at times. Many is the time I have been tempted to cleat the halyard off at the mast.

There are plenty of folk who argue in favour of furling/dropping the genoa first. It is part personal preference, part the set up of the boat and part the point of sail.

If you are hardening up without going about then getting the genoa up first means that you will lose less momentum.

On a fractional rig, some suggest the main is a better wind blocker.

Where a lose footed main is available, a 'letter box' drop is apparently a handy way of getting the kite down under control whilst short handed.

All these things vary from crew to crew and boat to boat. Trial and error is the best way to establish what works for you and yours.

 

[dt4134]

Most things have already been said. I'd add:

in heavy airs put the tweaker on a bit more to lower the lead of the sheet and strap down the spinnaker a bit more

When hoisting behind the genny get enough guy on to get some airflow into the spinnaker as it goes up, which reduces the chances of a wrap

Check the mainsail trim, if the boom has lifted the mainsail will have twisted off at the head and that can induce rolling.

I'd endorse the view that it's better to practice around about a F2-4 and build up to sailing in heavier airs.

 

[thedoc]

lots of good advice there...in gusty weather you cant adjust the pole/sheet/guy quick enough unless you are very well practiced and have excellent communication. Use a gust spotter, as has been said, and the helm needs to sail a consistent wind angle, rather than a straight course, sometimes descibed as 'keeping the boat under the spinnaker'. Go back to a dinghy, they are great for spinnaker practice. I sailed the Global Challenge and we had spinnakers up in all sorts of conditions, the best helms were all dinghy sailors in a previous life.

 

[gardenshed]

up behind the genoa
pole back with up haul & down haul tight so that the pole doesn't move around
Height set so that the clews are level
pole 90 deg from the mast to project the spi clew as far as possible from the mast
heavy airs down wind: guy must have a tweaker line pulled down tight at Bmax/just aft of shrouds. Height set so that shoulder folds first i.e. slightly low
sheet tweaker partially or fully pulled on to reduce the kite's movement.
Helm: steer to keep the boat directly under the mast head, anticipate the rolling and if in doubt, head-up slightly
one crew should be watching an calling for gusts
all weight well aft
Main should have the kicker on enough to make sure that the main boom doesn't move up and down of its own accord
dropping:
Halyard flaked out, no kinks, ready to run out easily, if in doubt, thro it over the back so that it is fully streamed out behind the boat.
blow the halyard so that the air is out of the sail or spike the guyand pull in the sheet as qick as you can. Letterbox, down the hatch, into forehatch ... whatever
only blow the guy once the kite is deflated and the you've started pulling in the sheet or the danger is that the filled kite flies further and further away from the boat on an extended halyard. It is amazing how they stay filled like that and REALLY get the boat rolling, usually ending in a broach or the kite flying from the masthead.
Practice, coordination and never never put knots in the end of sheets and guys
sheets/guys in cockpit: difficult to make general statements as boats are different. Ideally, the sheet should go from the aft quarter forward to another block on the toe rail (often a ratchet block on boats less than 30') then to the winch.
Trimmer should be in a position to easily see the kite and if possible, the windward coachroof winch should be used for the sheet so that the grinder is to windward
practice in light airs, practice gybes, sailing deep, shy reaching dropping from both a deep run and from a close reach ... tons to learn
peeling kites & taking the new clew out to the pole end .. all the stuff of legend for members of the foredeck union in the good'ol IOR days

 

[Gin]

nobody seems to have commented on the obvious!!

[ QUOTE ]
with two big guys up front who were still getting things sorted, and doing 6 knots, she began to nose dive and roll badly which threatened the spinnaker as it filled and folded.


[/ QUOTE ]

Many's the time, with a hatfull of wind has our foredeck man been chased back aft due to his weight sinking the bow under water in addition to the downward force of a strong chasing wind.

With two such heavies, you are badly overpressed on the foredeck in even a moderate wind

 

[gardenshed]

nobody except five .. or is it six of the respondents above