harstonwood
Member
Currently have three on rating, just wondered what the penalty would be to carry 4?
Spinnaker -IRC Rating
- Thread starter harstonwood
- Start date
flaming
Well-known member
I think it depends on the boat. But rarely more than a point or two I think.
harstonwood
Member
Ok thanks
Current rating 0.996 would like to stay below 1 for class splits
Thanks
Current rating 0.996 would like to stay below 1 for class splits
Thanks
Honeymonster
New member
On my 3200 the rating went up 2 points to carry a 4th spinnaker AND to change the Dyform forestay to a rod forestay. So the hit for just the 4th spinnaker is likely to be 1 point.
harstonwood
Member
Ok thanks for that
markhomer
Member
Check out irc website , rule changes proposed by annual conference and accepted were to rate spinnakers carried , ie from 1 up wards rather than current allowance for three
harstonwood
Member
Ok got my rating back extra 2 points to carry four spinnakers.
Regarding rule changes.....I read it that standard allowance remains three, but you can reduce rating if declare less than three. (Opposite to the way your penalised for carrying four)
Regarding rule changes.....I read it that standard allowance remains three, but you can reduce rating if declare less than three. (Opposite to the way your penalised for carrying four)
markhomer
Member
You got it , you would be silly to take the standard default of 3 when you can get a benefit of declaring and using less , as in some one designs etc
flaming
Well-known member
I can see the attraction of this idea. But it does worry me that it’s another thing that will differentiate between boats optimised for ww/lw racing and offshore boats. And as such make it less attractive for boats who concentrate on offshore to come out for other events.
harstonwood
Member
Yep agree - we need to encourage boats to do regattas that traditionally only sail offshore, and vice versa without penalty.
Most regatta boats carry at least two spinnakers anyway
Most regatta boats carry at least two spinnakers anyway
flaming
Well-known member
Absolutely. I have long advocated for RORC to allow boats to have 2 configurations on their certificate, and inshore and an offshore, so long as the only changes between them are in number of or size of sails. Or possibly a swap between a-sail and conventional kite setups.
This would just allow an offshore focused boat who wants to carry 4 kites for offshores to have another cert with only 2 or 3 for use in regattas. Or for boats who want to declare a massive genoa for use offshore to be able to leave it in the shed and declare only smaller headsails when racing round the cans.
The one step further would be for RORC to then tweak the inshore rating calculation into more of a ww/lw configuration to reflect the racing that is done inshore. For most boats would change nothing, but would allow those who have set up their boat for offshore to go to Cowes or Dartmouth etc for a bit of fun and feel like they could be competitive without having to re-rate the whole time.
savageseadog
Well-known member
Suggest the idea to RORC, perhaps they're more interested in selling more ratings though
harstonwood
Member
Agree with most of that.....particularly like the two rating (inshore/offshore) scenario.
markhomer
Member
Im an irc measurer and i have brought the dual handicap up at last two seminars ive been to, the more people that ask for it the better , i guess a simple bit of additional software and push of button could come up with win lee ratings .
I race in scotland on weds nights for “fun” ,on win lee courses , in fact most racing on west coast is win lee with the exception being poorly attended passage racing .
My boat is hammered under both irc and local cyca handicaps because of its reaching performance which i never get ,
Local handicap is very harsh and irc not even worth applying for , nor worth expense of optimising which would be drastic and expsensive .
I would however benefit from this change in spinn allowance under irc as i only carry one
flaming
Well-known member
Im an irc measurer and i have brought the dual handicap up at last two seminars ive been to, the more people that ask for it the better , i guess a simple bit of additional software and push of button could come up with win lee ratings .
I race in scotland on weds nights for “fun” ,on win lee courses , in fact most racing on west coast is win lee with the exception being poorly attended passage racing .
My boat is hammered under both irc and local cyca handicaps because of its reaching performance which i never get ,
Local handicap is very harsh and irc not even worth applying for , nor worth expense of optimising which would be drastic and expsensive .
I would however benefit from this change in spinn allowance under irc as i only carry one
I think IRC is going to have to do something. Rumours abound that the J111 fleet are going to start sailing ORCi from next season, inviting other boats that are hammered by IRC on a ww/lw track to join them.
I think everyone knows that offfshore there is an element of every dog having its day, and that you would never expect a boat like a J111 to do well in a Fastnet that's a beat all the way to the rock for example. But for inshore racing, where most races are WW/LW or close, then it's clear that IRC typeforms. And it's equally clear that the IRC typeform is not actually something that is really available to buy any more...
Something has got to give...
lw395
Well-known member
In dinghies, what gave was we moved away from w/l courses apart from the performance asy's.
Good old triangle-sausage or 'pointless harbour tour' makes a pleasant change, particularly in a handicap race.
w/l is great racing one-design or similar asymmetrics, but isn't all that great for a broad mix of boats.
The effect on handicaps is very stark in dinghies, where anything without a kite becomes a bandit on a course with tight reaches.
All the courses have their pluses and minuses, but there is much to be said for not doing the same thing all the time.
w/l is easy for the RO of course, one buoy to set. A P or Q course is a lot more demanding to get 'right'.
There is nothing to stop inshore clubs inventing their own yardstick, much as the Great Lakes gang have done in dinghies.
What do they do where IRC is not the only option? E.g. the US?
Good old triangle-sausage or 'pointless harbour tour' makes a pleasant change, particularly in a handicap race.
w/l is great racing one-design or similar asymmetrics, but isn't all that great for a broad mix of boats.
The effect on handicaps is very stark in dinghies, where anything without a kite becomes a bandit on a course with tight reaches.
All the courses have their pluses and minuses, but there is much to be said for not doing the same thing all the time.
w/l is easy for the RO of course, one buoy to set. A P or Q course is a lot more demanding to get 'right'.
There is nothing to stop inshore clubs inventing their own yardstick, much as the Great Lakes gang have done in dinghies.
What do they do where IRC is not the only option? E.g. the US?
flaming
Well-known member
Actually ww/lw is generally great for yachts. Mainly because the relative performances are pretty close, and the best bits about yacht races are manoeuvres that involve the whole crew. Downwind legs where you might need to do 3 or 4 gybes, beats that are true beats etc... That makes for good racing in yachts. Processional stuff does not because it's hard to pass and most of the crew spend the whole leg sat there doing nothing. The occasional kite reach is fun, especially if it's breezy but you wouldn't get much support for every race having a kite reach, and I'd guess almost none for races including a lot of 2 sail reaching. That really is the dullest sailing possible in a yacht.
USA have PHRF. Essentially like PY. Has its pluses and minuses, biggest plus is that it's not fixed and the "rating committee" can change ratings to reflect observed performances. Biggest minus is that it's not fixed and the "rating committee" can change ratings to "reflect" observed performances. However much we bitch about IRC, I think I prefer it to that scenario....
lw395
Well-known member
There's people who love w/l to the exclusion of all else, and there's people who like a bit of variety.
If you're happy with the turnouts you get just doing w/l, then fine. But the amount of moaning about the rating system suggests not everyone is happy with it.
The C in IRC stands for 'cruiser'? So it's hardly surprising that it perhaps favours boats which aren't w/l one trick ponies. Wasn't that the point of the SBR?
If you're happy with the turnouts you get just doing w/l, then fine. But the amount of moaning about the rating system suggests not everyone is happy with it.
The C in IRC stands for 'cruiser'? So it's hardly surprising that it perhaps favours boats which aren't w/l one trick ponies. Wasn't that the point of the SBR?
flaming
Well-known member
IRC stands for "International Rating Certificate".
We get a bit of variety now. Most events we do will have 3 races per day, 2 ww/lw and 1 with a reach or two in. But no, I'm not really happy with the turnout.
You are however wrong to say that it "favours boats which aren't w/l one trick ponies". That's the exact opposite. That's what it does favour, ww/lw 1 trick ponies. Mostly because IRC in its current guise treats potential performance reaching, running and beating equally. Which makes sense to the IRC committee, as it's an "offshore" rule and you are equally likely to beat, reach or run on an offshore race.
However, when the racing run inshore is predominantly ww/lw then to start with 2/3 of your race time will be spent beating. So it's pretty clear to see that a boat that is wicked quick to windward but doesn't have the ability to get up and plane on a reach will undoubtedly be favoured for inshore racing.
So we have reached a point where this is known. Designs like the Corbys, the King 40s etc are well optimised to be extremely quick on a ww/lw track without having good reaching potential to drive the rating up. And the inshore results back this up. But nobody's winning races in those boats offshore.
Equally, other designs are ok upwind but very fast reaching - a more rounded performance profile. And they win lots and lots of pots offshore, but struggle round the cans.
And that was, to an extent, fine when inshore racing and offshore racing were both in good health. But the thing is they are not, offshore racing is doing ok, but inshore is really suffering. To the extent that you cannot currently buy a new boat that is optimised for IRC ww/lw racing in the way you could in the past. They are not being made.
But the boats that are being made, the Sunfasts etc, that are great offshore are struggling to compete on the ww/lw track with boats that are over a decade old. So their owners are mostly not bothering. There are so, so many Sunfast 3600s in the Solent. There is one that ever comes out for regatta sailing, Redshift. And those guys are unbelievably good sailors but they don't win as much as you'd expect...
So what I'm simply suggesting is that IRC recognise the reality of inshore racing and tweak the rule to produce a rating where the beating, reaching, running split is maybe 50, 10, 40. And that every cert has 2 numbers, this is your inshore number, and this is your offshore number. And also allow boats to declare different sail configurations for each rating. And so round the cans events would say in the NOR "this is an inshore regatta" and offshore races would say "this event will be run using the IRC offshore rating".
And that might prompt more offshore boats to think about doing a regatta or two for fun.
lw395
Well-known member
I suspect that when CHS became IRC, the C did stand for 'Cruiser'.
Back then IRM was supposed to be the serious rating?
Maybe the rule is just past its sell by date. It happens to rating rules once too many boats get optimised.
You say boats optimised for IRC w/l are not being made. Surely that means not enough people are willing to buy them? So is the rest of the world having the same problem, or is it Solent thing?
Can nobody afford a bespoke boat any more?
Isn't the kind of dual number system you suggest pretty similar to the old SBR, which was when w/l became all the rage, along with bowsprits and asy's? Whatever happened to all that? I was away from the Solent (well Cowes anyway) for a year or two and suddenly it was all over.
Back then IRM was supposed to be the serious rating?
Maybe the rule is just past its sell by date. It happens to rating rules once too many boats get optimised.
You say boats optimised for IRC w/l are not being made. Surely that means not enough people are willing to buy them? So is the rest of the world having the same problem, or is it Solent thing?
Can nobody afford a bespoke boat any more?
Isn't the kind of dual number system you suggest pretty similar to the old SBR, which was when w/l became all the rage, along with bowsprits and asy's? Whatever happened to all that? I was away from the Solent (well Cowes anyway) for a year or two and suddenly it was all over.
