Spinnaker broach avoidance and recovery

[roblpm]

Was about 20 knots of wind last night.

We mucked up the start and thus were behind and pushing hard on the downwind leg. Going nearly dead downwind. Symmetric spinnaker.

Started rolling and then wiped out! Its a 28 foot parker so not really designed for that sort of thing......!

Anyway we had a bit of difficulty depowering and ended up with the guy and the sheet getting let go. Spinnaker flying from the mast in an embarrassing fashion! Had to retire and return to the marina to recover it.

No breakages so apart from a few wet legs no harm done. However we need to understand better what to do.

a) Are you more likely to broach going ddw? Should we have headed up slightly?

b) What should the helm and trimmers do if the boat starts rolling excessively? We probably only had about 30 seconds to do something!

c) From reading around, once the boat was on its side and stopped we should have let the spin halyard go about a third? And let the main right off.

Any other ideas? The rest of the fleet were all flying their spinnakers so chickening out is not an option.....!!

Cheers

Rob

 

[flaming]

Big subject!

First off, yes, going too deep can be a problem. What happens is that when you get close to DDW, the sail stops acting as an aerofoil, and starts acting like a bag. The flow over the sail initially stalls, and then starts oscillating, so one second it's going from luff to leach, then vice-versa. This encourages the rolling. This isn't necessarily a totally bad thing, as if you can control it, it's often quite quick. However, when it gets out of hand it can result in a wipeout - as you found out! To avoid it, sail a little higher, and keep the flow in one direction across the sail.
If you're happy with a few rolls, then they start building in amplitude towards inevitable carnage, just get your guy man to ease the pole forward, head up 10-20 degrees and stop the rolling. Once stabilized you can head down again.
Once you have broached, do not, under any circumstances release the guy past the point where the pole is on the forestay! To get back on your feet from a regular broach, ease the sheet a little, and dump the mainsheet and kicker. If that doesn't do it dump about 10 foot of halyard and be ready to sweat it back up again once the boat is upright again.
Any time you see a boat retiring with a kite round the rig, I'll put money on it being finally caused by dumping the guy.

A more general tip however, is that once you are getting a little scared, and think a wipeout is getting quite likely when running deep, pole forward and sheet on a bit. This hides the kite behind the main a bit, and depowers it.

 

[roblpm]

Big subject!

First off, yes, going too deep can be a problem. What happens is that when you get close to DDW, the sail stops acting as an aerofoil, and starts acting like a bag. The flow over the sail initially stalls, and then starts oscillating, so one second it's going from luff to leach, then vice-versa. This encourages the rolling. This isn't necessarily a totally bad thing, as if you can control it, it's often quite quick. However, when it gets out of hand it can result in a wipeout - as you found out! To avoid it, sail a little higher, and keep the flow in one direction across the sail.
If you're happy with a few rolls, then they start building in amplitude towards inevitable carnage, just get your guy man to ease the pole forward, head up 10-20 degrees and stop the rolling. Once stabilized you can head down again.
Once you have broached, do not, under any circumstances release the guy past the point where the pole is on the forestay! To get back on your feet from a regular broach, ease the sheet a little, and dump the mainsheet and kicker. If that doesn't do it dump about 10 foot of halyard and be ready to sweat it back up again once the boat is upright again.
Any time you see a boat retiring with a kite round the rig, I'll put money on it being finally caused by dumping the guy.

A more general tip however, is that once you are getting a little scared, and think a wipeout is getting quite likely when running deep, pole forward and sheet on a bit. This hides the kite behind the main a bit, and depowers it.

Great summary. Thanks.

 

[bbg]

Only thing I would add is to say that I think, once the wipeout has happened, you shouldn't be easing the guy at all. Not even to the forestay. It is too easy for whoever is doing that to let it go too far (or completely), resulting in in the problems flaming mentions.

Also, once you pop up, you may be on a beam reach and find it difficult to get the bow down. Raising the headsail can get some sail area forward and help drive the bow off. And will also ensure the kite doesn't get wrapped around the forestay.

 

[stoker_3rd_class]

First I ought to say that I'm not by any means a good downwind helmsman. Having said that I'd like to get better and I'd like to encourage disscussion on the topic so here are a couple of things that I've been told/tried over the years.

To reduce rolling (in no particular order):
1) pull on the tweaker on the spinaker sheet, if you don't have a tweaker try using the lazy guy as the sheet.
2) try to steer under the roll, i.e. if the boat rolls to starboard use small helm adjustments trying to steer the boat under the mast. These are small adjustments and need to anticipate the roll rather than reacting to it.
3) I think heading up a little may well reduce the rolling but won't reduce the chance of broaching!

In the event that the boat starts to broach and the main sheet is already fully released, letting go of the vang can save you if you catch it early enough. You'll need someone quick and attentive!

I'd be delighted if anyone want to corrects anything I've got wrong!
--Ian

 

[bedouin]

Once you have broached, do not, under any circumstances release the guy past the point where the pole is on the forestay!

Why not?

I have often been told that if you broach you don't release the guy but no one has explained what would happen if you did.

 

[flaming]

Why not?

I have often been told that if you broach you don't release the guy but no one has explained what would happen if you did.

THIS!

 

[bbg]

Then the whole sail is to leeward, without any ability to hold one corner into the wind. So no way to depower it.

If the tack of the spi is to windward of the forestay, you can depower it by completely releasing the sheet and still set it again once the boat is back on its feet.

If you let the tack run past the forestay you have essentially started to drop the kite and your only option at that point is to complete the drop. Release the guy completely and retrieve via the sheet. But at this point the boat will probably be on a beam reach, so the retrieval will be difficult. Normal retrieval would be behind the jib and main when running fairly deep, when those sails can blanket the spi.

 

[flaming]

First I ought to say that I'm not by any means a good downwind helmsman. Having said that I'd like to get better and I'd like to encourage disscussion on the topic so here are a couple of things that I've been told/tried over the years.

To reduce rolling (in no particular order):
1) pull on the tweaker on the spinaker sheet, if you don't have a tweaker try using the lazy guy as the sheet.
2) try to steer under the roll, i.e. if the boat rolls to starboard use small helm adjustments trying to steer the boat under the mast. These are small adjustments and need to anticipate the roll rather than reacting to it.
3) I think heading up a little may well reduce the rolling but won't reduce the chance of broaching!

In the event that the boat starts to broach and the main sheet is already fully released, letting go of the vang can save you if you catch it early enough. You'll need someone quick and attentive!

I'd be delighted if anyone want to corrects anything I've got wrong!
--Ian

I missed the tweaker thing on my list, yes absolutely. Difficulty with these threads is knowing how far back down the list of things to do to go! Tweakers go on as soon as I start fighting the helm downwind. The steering under the roll, yes, but very difficult to do by anything other than instinct in my opinion. A while ago someone new came on the boat and commented on a breezy run that was what I was doing. I couldn't have told you what I was doing, just what my instincts told me to do to keep it upright!
Regarding heading up, you should be able to hold your kite at 160 true without broaching. If you cannot, you should really just take it down! I'm not talking about coming up the point where you are overpressed, just to the point where you can be sure that the flow is definitely going in one direction.

 

[savageseadog]

Only sure way to avoid a spinnaker broach is not to hoist one, however.......... Above advice is good, try not to use too much correcting helm after you loose control, it will only slow you down

 

[Foolish Muse]

THIS!

I love that photo. I've been in that exact position a bunch of times, singlehanded, before I figured that out. Don't ever ever release the guy unless you've got the spinnaker sheet well in hand and under control. You absolutely do not want the sheet and guy extended at the same time.

I disagree with the idea of easing the halyard. You are just leading to the same problems as shown in the photo. Ease the Sheet, all the way.

Don't be afraid to release the sheet completely (just make sure not to lose it through the block) and let the spinnaker flap in the wind in front of the boat. As a singlehander I've had too many 25 knot broaches to count. In fact yesterday evening I was half way through raising the chute in 25 knots when a gust came and rounded the boat up. I released the spinnaker sheet until the sail was flapping, then eased the main sheet and got the boat sailing downwind again. Once in this position it was easy to finish hauling up the halyard and then pulling the spin sheet in and sailing away.

 

[bignick]

My general rule to avoid unstable rolling is:
1/ Vang on as hard as possible to flatten main ( twist in main makes roll worse)
2/ Tweakers / down****ers on all the way ( guy and sheet tension then pull from midships, not aft. Also prevents kite moving side to side as much)
3/ Oversquare the pole (pull it back further to flatten the kite)
4/ Lower pole
5/ Oversheet (flatten the kite)
The last 3 pull the 3 corners apart. This flattens the spinnaker and prevent it moving around.

These are significantly different to avoiding a broach on a reach, for which:
1/ Someone ready to release the vang to dump main
2/ lower pole
3/ guy tweaker down to toe rail
4/ sheet tweaker off completely
(Forget all about trying to keep the clews level - luff clew should be lower than leech clew)
The aim being to twist the spinnaker and the main, and flatten the spinnaker as much as possible.

 

[lw395]

Was about 20 knots of wind last night.

We mucked up the start and thus were behind and pushing hard on the downwind leg. Going nearly dead downwind. Symmetric spinnaker.

Started rolling and then wiped out! Its a 28 foot parker so not really designed for that sort of thing......!

Anyway we had a bit of difficulty depowering and ended up with the guy and the sheet getting let go. Spinnaker flying from the mast in an embarrassing fashion! Had to retire and return to the marina to recover it.

No breakages so apart from a few wet legs no harm done. However we need to understand better what to do.

a) Are you more likely to broach going ddw? Should we have headed up slightly?

b) What should the helm and trimmers do if the boat starts rolling excessively? We probably only had about 30 seconds to do something!

c) From reading around, once the boat was on its side and stopped we should have let the spin halyard go about a third? And let the main right off.

Any other ideas? The rest of the fleet were all flying their spinnakers so chickening out is not an option.....!!

Cheers

Rob

In addition to what's already been said:
Get all the crew weight back.
Make sure you have enough kicker on to stop the head of the main driving the mast to windward.
But once the broach is happening, dump the kicker.
It's mostly the main that is making the boat head up.

Once you have broached, if the pole is a long way back, the kite may be filling from the wrong side. So may go inside the forestay. You'll want to get the pole forwards if that's on the cards.
I don't believe just dumping the sheet always works. The sheet is often too short, in the water, grabs the rig, whatever.

Running the guy and retrieving on the sheet is an option, but you have to be decisive, get the guy gone before you lose control of the sheet.
If it's not too far to the mark it's an option.

Dumping 1/3 of the halyard works a peach on some boats less well on others. Not sure why.

 

[Birdseye]

Any other ideas? The rest of the fleet were all flying their spinnakers so chickening out is not an option.....!!

Cheers

Rob

I do relate to that comment.

 

[Birdseye]

In fact yesterday evening I was half way through raising the chute in 25 knots when a gust came and rounded the boat up. I released the spinnaker sheet until the sail was flapping, then eased the main sheet and got the boat sailing downwind again. Once in this position it was easy to finish hauling up the halyard and then pulling the spin sheet in and sailing away.

Singlehanded! You are my hero! And maybe a complete headbanger. :encouragement:

 

[roblpm]

I do relate to that comment.

Good practice for cruising though. The racing is in a fairly safe area not far from help. So I think seeing what the boat does and does not do in any given situation has to be a good thing. So test to the limits racing and then sail conservatively elsewhere!!!

 

[Channel Sailor]

For me too, very useful posts here. Thank you.

 

[Birdseye]

Good practice for cruising though. The racing is in a fairly safe area not far from help. So I think seeing what the boat does and does not do in any given situation has to be a good thing. So test to the limits racing and then sail conservatively elsewhere!!!

No. Lets be honest about it. Its a perfectly normal / natural male reaction but it isnt a sensible way of making a decision. On that sort of reasoning, I allowed us to get dragged out for a race with a forecast F9 against a Bristol channel spring tide and which turned out to be averaging 40kn with gusts to near 50kn. Yes we coped and surprisingly without damage but it was a stupid thing to do . We rapidly became the last boat racing and someone on the cliffs watching us struggle to the windward mark called the coastguard to report an emergency.

Not my greatest hour! And all because I saw Graham heading out to the start when I was debating leaving the pontoon.

 

[roblpm]

No. Lets be honest about it. Its a perfectly normal / natural male reaction but it isnt a sensible way of making a decision. On that sort of reasoning, I allowed us to get dragged out for a race with a forecast F9 against a Bristol channel spring tide and which turned out to be averaging 40kn with gusts to near 50kn. Yes we coped and surprisingly without damage but it was a stupid thing to do . We rapidly became the last boat racing and someone on the cliffs watching us struggle to the windward mark called the coastguard to report an emergency.

Not my greatest hour! And all because I saw Graham heading out to the start when I was debating leaving the pontoon.

Aha but I am naturally a wimp so if it was left entirely up to me I would be at home in bed...... So a little competition / encouragement is a good thing! Our situation doesn't sound anything like yours. We are happy sailing in 30 plus knots. Just don't have the kite experience. I now know a lot more about it than I did a week ago!

 

[TallBuoy]

Skippering on a corporate gig yesterday, and 'we' managed a complete wipe out, so I've been googling around to learn from my mistakes. It was identical to flaming's video from last year, full kite in the water etc.

1. Don't go for the kite just because other boats have, there were others that hadn't too!
2. Don't go in front of the helm to help out, leaving a (very experienced) dinghy sailor alone to steer

While on our side, we did manage to ease, not let go of, sheet guy and halyard to get back up right, then it was just a load of effort to retrieve everything - nobody got hurt, nothing got damaged.

My biggest concern was that having the main gybe because we sailed to deep (to avoid another boat broaching) I wanted to gybe it back to drop the kite through the letter box, but the helm simply couldn't get the boat the stern through the wind, which is when we went the whole distance.

So my question is - once you've accidentally or 'chinese' gybed, is it possible to gybe the main back, or do you just prepare for the the inevitable and deal with it.